Why do non-smokers often display hostility towards smokers?

[Hootenanny]

First off I don't smoke, secondly that would be completely fine with me. There is a big difference though between politely asking me not to smoke in your presence, and having the government force me into it. Isnt it said every force has has an equal but opposite reaction?

That is all well and good, but what if I feel too intimidated to ask? Or suppose the smoker refuses? Don't we need some form a legal procedure to ensure that everyone has the right not to work/play/relax without having to breath in tobacco smoke?

 

[rootX]

I like that, they are banning ALL flavored smokes, EXCEPT menthols. Why did they choose menthols as the exception? Could it be they would upset a core voting block? Profit doesn't always have to come in the form of money. Only in government does ALL have exceptions.
Clove cigs don't even have tobacco in them do they?

Nonsense.

 

[Jasongreat]

That is all well and good, but what if I feel too intimidated to ask? Or suppose the smoker refuses? Don't we need some form a legal procedure to ensure that everyone has the right not to work/play/relax without having to breath in tobacco smoke?

Why are you intimidated? Smokers arent mean(unless they can't smoke,LOL) Why should I have to be forced into something because you can't work up the guts to ask me politely not to smoke? Refusing is the smokers option, but I find most don't object, since they are the minority most places. If they are in the majority why should they have to? Why can't you work somewhere else, play somewhere else, relax somewhere else? You have to be in the smoke filled enviroment? If an employer wants to keep their non-smokers they will find a way for you to work without smoke. If where you play wants to keep your buisiness, they will find a way for you to play without smoke, and if you want to relax smoke free go where you can relax smoke free. The argument seems to be how can one person hurt another, they cant(but you have to prove the hurt not just reach a consensus that you might be hurt). I consider having my rights stolen being hurt, and I think I can find a lot more examples from history of people hurt by having their rights violated than I can find people that were actually hurt by second hand smoke.

 

[Hootenanny]

Why are you intimidated? Smokers arent mean(unless they can't smoke,LOL) Why should I have to be forced into something because you can't work up the guts to ask me politely not to smoke? Refusing is the smokers option, but I find most don't object, since they are the minority most places. If they are in the majority why should they have to? Why can't you work somewhere else, play somewhere else, relax somewhere else? You have to be in the smoke filled enviroment? If an employer wants to keep their non-smokers they will find a way for you to work without smoke. If where you play wants to keep your buisiness, they will find a way for you to play without smoke, and if you want to relax smoke free go where you can relax smoke free. The argument seems to be how can one person hurt another, they cant(but you have to prove the hurt not just reach a consensus that you might be hurt). I consider having my rights stolen being hurt, and I think I can find a lot more examples from history of people hurt by having their rights violated than I can find people that were actually hurt by second hand smoke.

Firstly I don't have a problem with asking smokers to stop smoking, I was merely consider a hypothetical situation where a non-smoker felt unable - for whatever reason - to ask a smoker to stop smoking. That's not such an unbelievable situation is it?

And don't bandy about the 'human rights' nonsense, we all accept some limitations to our human rights in the name of civility and sociality. For example, I'm not allowed to play loud music at 2am. This is a breach of my human rights, but that's fine because I understand it is socially unacceptable to make other people feel uncomfortable. Why is an exception made for smokers? Why is it acceptable for a smoker to make non-smokers feel uncomfortable and then expect them to leave if they don't like it? If I were your neighbour and was playing loud music at 2am, I wouldn't expect you to leave your house!

Let's turn this the other way round shall we. Why should a non-smoker have their human rights violated by not being able to work, relax or play where they like?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I like that, they are banning ALL flavored smokes, EXCEPT menthols. Why did they choose menthols as the exception? Could it be they would upset a core voting block? Profit doesn't always have to come in the form of money. Only in government does ALL have exceptions.
Clove cigs don't even have tobacco in them do they?

Cloves do actually have tobacco in them.

While from what I have read blacks are apparently a major demographic among menthol smokers I am pretty sure that the major reason for exempting menthol was due to the profits that American tobacco companies make off of them. Philip Morris was involved in the negotiations and promoting of the bill and menthol is the most widely used domestically produced flavoured tobacco product.

 

[Jasongreat]

Firstly I don't have a problem with asking smokers to stop smoking, I was merely consider a hypothetical situation where a non-smoker felt unable - for whatever reason - to ask a smoker to stop smoking. That's not such an unbelievable situation is it?

And don't bandy about the 'human rights' nonsense, we all accept some limitations to our human rights in the name of civility and sociality. For example, I'm not allowed to play loud music at 2am. This is a breach of my human rights, but that's fine because I understand it is socially unacceptable to make other people feel uncomfortable. Why is an exception made for smokers? Why is it acceptable for a smoker to make non-smokers feel uncomfortable and then expect them to leave if they don't like it? If I were your neighbour and was playing loud music at 2am, I wouldn't expect you to leave your house!

Let's turn this the other way round shall we. Why should a non-smoker have their human rights violated by not being able to work, relax or play where they like?

Why should we have to limit our rights to live in society? Isnt that the basis of society, in society you have rights, outside society the strong will survive at the expense of the weak(is that much differnent than the majority will survive at the expense of the minority).
Arent rights part of our social contract, I agree to allow you to do what you want(as long as what you want doesn't interfere with me doing what i want) and in turn you allow me to do what I want( as long as what I do doesn't interfere with what you want to do). Smoking doesn't interfere with you at all, it might be annoying, but it doesn't stop you from activities.
Non-smokers are NOT being stopped from being able to work/relax/ or play. You don't have a right to like where you work/play/relax, but you do have a right to leave and go find a job/play/relaxing spot you do like. I don't agree that loud music should be banned after a certain hour, what if you don't have neighbors? But I do believe it should be regulated locally neighbor to neighbor, if I don't like it ill ask politely to turn it down(you see, I only said down not off), you do turn it down great, you dont, well I go to court a present my case as to why I think you violated my rights, you get to present your case that you had the right to listen loudly. A jury of our piers gets to decide. If people actually had to go to court to prove their grievences, instead of arbitrarily saying this side has a grievence that side doesnt, I don't think they would get as worked up about the little things and they would start to concentrate on the big things.

 

[Bratticus]

If I were your neighbour and was playing loud music at 2am, I wouldn't expect you to leave your house!

Let's turn this the other way round shall we. Why should a non-smoker have their human rights violated by not being able to work, relax or play where they like?

On the other hand, a Colorado law says if you smoke you have to be 20 ft (or was that more) away from the residence you purchased and therefore own.

Do you really approve of the government telling you that you are not allowed to engage in a legal activity in the privacy of your own home?

I do believe there is also some law on the books about playing loud music in cars.

Think about what you are saying. If some group would hold the belief that no one should have sex on sundays... shall we invoke a law?

 

[Artman]

First of all, smoking has limitations placed on it so it is not a right, it is a privilege (like driving, there are age limitations, taxes, restrictions as to where it is and is not legal, etc.). Breathing is a right. If a privilege interferes with a right, the right takes precedence. For years this was turned on its head with smoking, as non-smokers had to suffer this addiction in public locations. Are some people still upset by this? You betcha!

By your own admission, it is difficult to come up with another habit that is legal and yet so harmful to both the user and those around them. Driving creates pollutants, but the benefits to society are numerous, drinking is more confined (driving drunk is illegal, public drunkenness is illegal, etc.) and restrictions are harsher including jail time for some infractions, drug abuse is illegal, sexual deviation is illegal, and so on. I would say you smokers are just lucky your addictive behavior is tolerated by society to the extent that it is. Now you want us to be nicer about it?

 

[Bratticus]

Not "nicer" artman, civilized.

 

[negitron]

First of all, smoking has limitations placed on it so it is not a right, it is a privilege (like driving, there are age limitations, taxes, restrictions as to where it is and is not legal, etc.).

This is not correct. Lots of rights have restrictions. The right to vote has an age limit and residency requirements and in some cases, convicted felons cannot vote. Free speech has restrictions; you cannot shout "Fire!" in a crowded movied theater, for example. You have a right to smoke, within limits. A privilege can be suspended entirely as, for instance, if you accumulate too many points on yoru license or incur a DWI. The government currently cannot forbid someone from smoking entirely, ergo it is a right.

 

[Bratticus]

Speaking of laws... Maryland (and I am sure a few other states as well) has a law on the books that makes adultery illegal and a crime.

If we should enforce that law, a lot of people would be able to find jobs (and pay taxes).
They can build more jails to house the delinquents. They will need people to to the jobs of those who are jailed.

And don't tell me that adultery hurts no one... a great lot of cheated spouses would disagree with you.

 

[Jasongreat]

Speaking of laws... Maryland (and I am sure a few other states as well) has a law on the books that makes adultery illegal and a crime.

If we should enforce that law, a lot of people would be able to find jobs (and pay taxes).
They can build more jails to house the delinquents. They will need people to to the jobs of those who are jailed.

And don't tell me that adultery hurts no one... a great lot of cheated spouses would disagree with you.

So now we should enforce hurt feelings? How does adultery hurt their spouse physically?

 

[Bratticus]

So now we should enforce hurt feelings? How does adultery hurt their spouse physically?

Read what you quoted... it said should we enforce that law, not enforce hurt feelings.

I also believe that there are a host of medical professionals that can advise you on the effects of emotional distress on the human mind and body.

 

[Artman]

...The government currently cannot forbid someone from smoking entirely, ergo it is a right.

Not for lack of trying.

In 1997-98 there were 88 bills in congress to:

1. Reduce or otherwise control smoking and the use of tobacco products in general
2. Impose new or tougher controls on the production and sale of tobacco products
3. Fund new or continuing research into health concerns related to tobacco use

http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa111398.htm"

Why did the vast majority of smoking reduction - tobacco control related legislation not become law? Some acts may have been bad laws, having Constitutional or other legal problems. Some may have been too expensive. Others were probably covered by other bills. Most just flat ran out of time. But, let's face it, some of these bills ran up against the tremendous influence of one America's oldest and largest industries - tobacco.

By the way, I worked with a guy for 14 years in the same room who smoked cigars all day. I was never anything but nice to him all the way up to and including the day he died of a heart attack in the office. Yeah, I wish he had quit. I liked him.

 

[Jasongreat]

First of all, smoking has limitations placed on it so it is not a right, it is a privilege (like driving, there are age limitations, taxes, restrictions as to where it is and is not legal, etc.). Breathing is a right. If a privilege interferes with a right, the right takes precedence. For years this was turned on its head with smoking, as non-smokers had to suffer this addiction in public locations. Are some people still upset by this? You betcha!

By your own admission, it is difficult to come up with another habit that is legal and yet so harmful to both the user and those around them. Driving creates pollutants, but the benefits to society are numerous, drinking is more confined (driving drunk is illegal, public drunkenness is illegal, etc.) and restrictions are harsher including jail time for some infractions, drug abuse is illegal, sexual deviation is illegal, and so on. I would say you smokers are just lucky your addictive behavior is tolerated by society to the extent that it is. Now you want us to be nicer about it?

First of all a lot of rights have limitations, like free speech, but its not less of a right, is it?

Secondly driving is a right(except for commercial purposes), having a drivers license is a privilege. The supreme court has held that opinion in numerous rulings(google driving is a right, click on #1 link, its not a peer reviewed journal but lists the cases so you can go to cornell law.com and read them for yourself). The states get by this by making you sign away certain rights in order to get the privilege of a D.L (They falsley tell students that driving is a privilege). In most cases this happens around the age of 16, How many legally binding documents can you sign at that age?(none unless it benefits the government).

Thirdly, DUI laws are unconstitutional, Whose rights got violated by someone having a few beers and driving down the road? Remember, I said got violated not could potenially hurt someone. If some one is drunk, and driving down the road, and runs over someone that is a crime it is called vehicular manslaughter, and it even applies for non-drinkers as well. Why make laws that only pertain to a small segment of society. Doesn't the constitution say the GENERAL welfare, that doesn't mean some people that means everybody.

 

[Jasongreat]

By the way, I worked with a guy for 14 years in the same room who smoked cigars all day. I was never anything but nice to him all the way up to and including the day he died of a heart attack in the office. Yeah, I wish he had quit. I liked him.

So no one that doesn't smoke has heart attacks? and Everyone that does smoke has one?
Could you not be simplifying his death, just a little?

 

[Artman]

So no one that doesn't smoke has heart attacks? and Everyone that does smoke has one?
Could you not be simplifying his death, just a little?

Yeah you're right. What's the chance that smoking contributed, right?

More to the point, who was more civilized, me who put up with his cigars without complaining for 14 years, or him for smoking in the same room as me, even though he knew I was an asthmatic?

Maybe if I had been a little assertive about his not smoking he may have cut down and lowered a major risk factor.

 

[Flat]

Reminds me of south park



(the sound is horrible. It gets slightly better later on).

 

[Jasongreat]

Yeah you're right. What's the chance that smoking contributed, right?

More to the point, who was more civilized, me who put up with his cigars without complaining for 14 years, or him for smoking in the same room as me, even though he knew I was an asthmatic?

Maybe if I had been a little assertive about his not smoking he may have cut down and lowered a major risk factor.

I never said smoking doesn't contribute, I said smoking doesn't cause. Well his smoking must of not been too bad if you chose to stay in the same room asthma and all.
And maybe if he didnt have other contributing factors he could have got away with smoking for years more.

 

[BobG]

On the other hand, a Colorado law says if you smoke you have to be 20 ft (or was that more) away from the residence you purchased and therefore own.

Do you really approve of the government telling you that you are not allowed to engage in a legal activity in the privacy of your own home?

Are you sure about this?

There are laws that restrict smoking in your own home if you're operating a daycare, but it's the business use of your home that causes smoking to be restricted. This would be better phrased as being prohibited from smoking in a business that you purchased and therefore own. You might be able to argue your point is technically not a lie, but I think your point is very misleading.

I don't believe there are any restrictions on smoking in a strictly private residence. Not only that, but residents in assisted living facilities are allowed to smoke in their own rooms, even though they share the building with non-smokers. The clear emphasis in Colorado's Clean Indoor Air Act is to exempt private residences, period. (The daycare restriction comes from interpretation of a different law about daycare facilities).

 

[BobG]

Maybe if I had been a little assertive about his not smoking he may have cut down and lowered a major risk factor.

The first step in overcoming your guilt is to admit we are powerless over tobacco —that our lives have become unmanageable. Only the smoker can break addiction's hold on his life. It's important for you to let go and admit you have no control over others' actions. The only thing you can control is your reaction to tobacco. You need to detach - let go and let the smoker take responsibility for his own actions.

 

[BobG]

This is not correct. Lots of rights have restrictions. The right to vote has an age limit and residency requirements and in some cases, convicted felons cannot vote. Free speech has restrictions; you cannot shout "Fire!" in a crowded movied theater, for example. You have a right to smoke, within limits. A privilege can be suspended entirely as, for instance, if you accumulate too many points on yoru license or incur a DWI. The government currently cannot forbid someone from smoking entirely, ergo it is a right.

Both a privilege and a right can be suspended entirely or regulated. A convicted felon can't own a firearm in most states in spite of the 2nd Amendment. A convicted felon can't vote in some states (an example that you, yourself, pointed out, except you preferred to consider it a restriction vs. complete suspension in this case).

Your argument isn't even consistent with itself, let alone correct.

 

[BobG]

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot agree with you here. What gives anyone the right to do something that adversely affects the health of others?

The fact that sometimes the corrective actions have more drastic and immediate affects than the hazards you're trying to protect against. This is one of the main arguments used by industry to justify delays in fuel mileage restrictions, emission standards, possible actions to reduce global warming, etc.

Whether you agree or disagree with the particular cases in questions, evaluating the benefits of some preventive action against the cost/adverse affects of the preventive action is a normal part of risk management. The right answer isn't always to pass a law protecting the health and comfort of some individuals regardless of the cost.

If saving human life were worth any cost, we would have lights illuminating the entire interstate highway system of the United States, not just the more heavily trafficked portions in the city.

 

[Artman]

By the way, I worked with a guy for 14 years in the same room who smoked cigars all day. I was never anything but nice to him all the way up to and including the day he died of a heart attack in the office. Yeah, I wish he had quit. I liked him.

Reread my comment. You inferred the cigar smoking caused the heart attack. I never said it caused it. My comment was directed against the OP's premise: that I was hostile towards this smoker, which I wasn't.

You need to detach - let go and let the smoker take responsibility for his own actions.

BobG. Yeah, I know. I never pushed the issue and I realize it probably wouldn't have made any difference even if I did.

Well his smoking must of not been too bad if you chose to stay in the same room asthma and all.

Or maybe I needed the job. Let's go with that one.

I am glad that it is illegal to smoke in the workplace where I currently work.

Here's a comparison for you, it's like someone choking you every day, just enough for your breathing to be labored, although it may eventually kill you. He claims that's his right, or that you should remove yourself from the hazard. He claims it relaxes him (as far as I can tell that is the only benefit). Does this sound like a right to you?

 

[Bratticus]

BobG, sorry, my bad...

A Colorado judge has upheld a rule by a homeowners association preventing people from smoking in their own home.

A judge has upheld a homeowners association’s order barring a couple from smoking in the town house they own.

Illegal to Smoke at Home: Butt Out?
March 20, 2009
By Kathy McManus
Comments (297)
Two new legal commandments have been delivered to the Silicon Valley town of Belmont, California:

Thou shalt not smoke in thy apartment
Thou shalt inform authorities of anyone who does smoke in an apartment

Belmont is home to America’s most restrictive secondhand smoking law, which now makes it illegal to light up in an apartment or condo that shares a wall, ceiling, or floor with another unit. Violators face a $100 fine from the city, as well as eviction if smoking violates their lease agreement.

Additionally, the new law makes citizens responsible for enforcing it by encouraging them to call authorities and report their neighbors if they light up in any home other than a free-standing house.

Guess I need to brush up on my Geography... mixing up California with Colorado.

I shall sit myself in a corner and contemplate upon the errors of my ways :)

 

[Jasongreat]

The first step in overcoming your guilt is to admit we are powerless over tobacco —that our lives have become unmanageable. Only the smoker can break addiction's hold on his life. It's important for you to let go and admit you have no control over others' actions. The only thing you can control is your reaction to tobacco. You need to detach - let go and let the smoker take responsibility for his own actions.

We are NOT powerless over anything and that includes tobacco. But we are guilty of giving tobacco too much power, by saying that there is nothing we can do(i am speaking of the individual, not the government). That is a limiting belief, nothing more. Like every time a smoker tells their self " man I couldn't of made it through that without a smoke", or " man I really need(instead of want) a smoke". Besides that addiction is just an excuse, "I can't stop smoking I'm addicted" another limiting belief. I do however completely agree with your last three sentences.

 

[Artman]

Did anyone mention the risk of fire?

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/campaigns/smoking/"

That was about a third of all fire related civilian deaths in 2008 (3,320 deaths).

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/statistics/quickstats/index.shtm"

 

[Jasongreat]

Reread my comment. You inferred the cigar smoking caused the heart attack. I never said it caused it. My comment was directed against the OP's premise: that I was hostile towards this smoker, which I wasn't.

BobG. Yeah, I know. I never pushed the issue and I realize it probably wouldn't have made any difference even if I did.


Or maybe I needed the job. Let's go with that one.

I am glad that it is illegal to smoke in the workplace where I currently work.

Here's a comparison for you, it's like someone choking you every day, just enough for your breathing to be labored, although it may eventually kill you. He claims that's his right, or that you should remove yourself from the hazard. He claims it relaxes him (as far as I can tell that is the only benefit). Does this sound like a right to you?

You never said the cigar smoking caused it, true, but you alluded that if you would have got him to quit he wouldn't of had the heart attack.(which is a round about way to say it caused it)

It was the only job in the country? Just because that is the job you want, or because that job was close to home, doesn't entitle you to make other people change to take care of you. You are the only one that can take care of you. If you don't care enough about you to move why should the rest of us?

Can you choke me without touching me? If you can, Then I guess go for it. But I bet I don't stay in your presense long. Isnt self preservation one of our innate instincts?

 

[27Thousand]

Calling all physicsforum members! Calling all members! Check out the truth about second handsmoke!


Something I found VERY interesting and RELEVANT:

http://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/secondhand_smoke/index.htm
Notice the .gov and it's one of the major federal health agencies.

If you click on Secondhand Smoke (September 2006), which includes references to back it up, you get:

Health Effects of Secondhand Smoke Exposure

Secondhand smoke exposure causes heart disease and lung cancer in nonsmoking adults.2

Nonsmokers who are exposed to secondhand smoke at home or work increase their heart disease risk by 25–30% and their lung cancer risk by 20–30%.2

Breathing secondhand smoke has immediate harmful effects on the cardiovascular system that can increase the risk of heart attack. People who already have heart disease are at especially high risk.2

Secondhand smoke exposure causes respiratory symptoms in children and slows their lung growth.2

Secondhand smoke causes sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), acute respiratory infections, ear problems, and more frequent and severe asthma attacks in children.2

There is no risk-free level of secondhand smoke exposure. Even brief exposure can be dangerous.2

Also click on Secondhand Smoke Causes Heart Disease (October 2006)
AND
Secondhand Smoke Causes Lung Cancer (October 2006)

U.S. Department of Human Services, Office of the Surgeon General, and secondhand smoke http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke/report/


I DON'T think I understand how more secondhand smoke in public buildings means MORE HUMAN RIGHTS?

 

[Bratticus]

Did anyone mention the risk of fire?

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/campaigns/smoking/"

That was about a third of all fire related civilian deaths in 2008 (3,320 deaths).

http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/statistics/quickstats/index.shtm"

According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) 41,059 people died in traffic crashes in 2007 in the United States (latest figures available), including an estimated 12,998 people who died in alcohol-impaired driving crashes. Drunk driving fatalities accounted for 32% of all traffic deaths last year, that is, on average someone is killed in an alcohol-impaired driving crash every 40 minutes in the U.S. (Source: NHTSA/FARS, 2008)

According to the CDC, alcohol-related crashes in the U.S. cost approximately 51 billion dollars every year and the Office for Victims of Crimes estimates that 30 percent of Americans will be involved in an alcohol-related accident at some point in their lifetime.

Why is no one climbing the barricades shouting about banning alcohol?

Oh wait a minute... we already had that, Prohibition...

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1596.html

The rise of gangsterism

The Prohibition era of the 1920s gave rise to the organized crime syndicate in the United States. Federal efforts to enforce prohibition, including raids on speakeasies, were countered by well-organized bootlegging operations with national and international connections.

The more the government attempts to dictate how people should live, the bigger the mess they make of it