Why do some people criticize Ayn Rand's philosophy and literature?

[thephysicsman]

I have read Atlas Shrugged and The Fountain head. I personally believe in them, and many other people that I talk to also believe in them. So why do other people hate the books and her? What train of thought gets them to disliking her work?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayn_Rand

I've just started reading The Fountainhead, and I'm thoroughly engrossed. I think people hate these ideas because they are collectivists and believe that it's the duty of each individual to sacrifice his values and ultimately his life to a mystifal an undefined "greater good".

Individualists like Rand, collectivists/statists do not. Why do they hate her? Because they are not honest. Knowledge or conflict is a threat to them, as opposed to an opportunity, i.e. a problem to resolve. Their theory of values is a betrayal of their nature as human beings, lest they accept reason as the standard of value. They don't want to acknowledge reasons, laws, but rather to live indulgently by relative or dogmatic standards. i.e. Being loved for being, not for anything they might think or achieve. It is the ultimate form of freedom they want; freedom from humanity.

So true!

I once saw Ayn Rand on a television show. A person in the audience started a question with something like "I used to believe in your philosophy but now I know better" and Ms. Rand simply walked off the stage. Yes, the questioner was being rude, but Ms. Rand, by walking off, was putting down everyone else in the audience, as well as the host of the show.

She sometimes lost control like this, but this has no bearing on the truth of her philosophy.

she was an egotistical, self centered, not very likeable person

Egoistic and self centered, yes. Not very likeable? Maybe if you're a collectivist.

Here "philosphy" was basically "get yours and never help other people".

Not true. "Follow your rational self interest".

 

[WhoWee]

What's your point, WhoWee?

Is there some sort of secret behind-the-scenes plot?

There are other explanations that have nothing to do with supposed government depravity. Like more ready availability, and more opportunity to report overdoses. Furthermore, abuse of prescription drugs is a result of getting around government regulations, of following only the letter of the law and not its spirit. And sometimes not even the letter, as with Rush Limbaugh and OxyContin. Also, alcohol and tobacco aren't regulated nearly as much as prescription drugs, yet they still cause a Hades of a lot of trouble.

Consider the frog wars of 19th-cy. US railroad companies as they extended their lines outward. They'd sometimes get their employees to fight the employees of rival RR's. Or consider what criminal gangsters sometimes do -- fight each other.

My point was that market forces will provide a certain level of regulations - where Government regulation has either failed or doesn't exist. Deaths on the street are unacceptable to the market - especially consumers. Competition and steady demand have stabilized prices.

This has nothing to do with "Government depravity", Rush Limbaugh, or frog wars.

 

[lpetrich]

My point was that market forces will provide a certain level of regulations - where Government regulation has either failed or doesn't exist. Deaths on the street are unacceptable to the market - especially consumers.

Which means that the Mafia is a bunch of lily-livered pacifists, right?

This has nothing to do with "Government depravity", Rush Limbaugh, or frog wars.

So counterevidence is irrelevant?

 

[WhoWee]

Which means that the Mafia is a bunch of lily-livered pacifists, right?

You said that - not me. No, dead junkies are bad for business.

 

[WhoWee]

So counterevidence is irrelevant?

"Counterevidence" (?) - please explain.

 

[ParticleGrl]

The highly regulated (and legal) prescription drugs are now responsible for more deaths than the unregulated (except for being illegal) drugs. Does this not answer your question? The unregulated illegal drugs are killing less people than the highly regulated drugs - prescribed by doctors?

Prescription drugs might be killing more people, but they are also being used by more people, which maks sense, as they are more easily available. The switch to prescription drugs may well represent the fact that the free market did not set a minimum quality standard in banned narcotics, so drug users are moving to professionally filled prescriptions sold illegally.

Further, the fact that overdoses are up on prescription drugs suggests that when people buy even prescription drugs illegally, they might not be getting what they pay for (stronger doses, different fillers, etc).

In short, you are making conclusions your data in no way warrants.

My point was that market forces will provide a certain level of regulations - where Government regulation has either failed or doesn't exist.

You are ignoring foundational things that must be in place for a market to work. One is the ability to build a reputation- in a drug business, a reputation is as big a liability as an asset (greater awareness among drug users also means greater awareness among law enforcement). You should read economics papers on black markets. Further, a drug market is ripe for asymmetrical information, so such a market may well represent potential for the good to drive out the bad.

 

[WhoWee]

Prescription drugs might be killing more people, but they are also being used by more people, which maks sense, as they are more easily available. The switch to prescription drugs may well represent the fact that the free market did not set a minimum quality standard in banned narcotics, so drug users are moving to professionally filled prescriptions sold illegally.

Further, the fact that overdoses are up on prescription drugs suggests that when people buy even prescription drugs illegally, they might not be getting what they pay for (stronger doses, different fillers, etc).

In short, you are making conclusions your data in no way warrants.

As I recently posted:
"My point was that market forces will provide a certain level of regulations - where Government regulation has either failed or doesn't exist. Deaths on the street are unacceptable to the market - especially consumers. "

It's really very basic - dead junkies don't buy dope (that is certain), drug dealers that sell product that makes people sick (when others don't) will be avoided - fairly certain, and dead and sick junkies lead to criminal prosecutions - dealers avoid bad supplies.

 

[ParticleGrl]

It's really very basic - dead junkies don't buy dope (that is certain), drug dealers that sell product that makes people sick (when others don't) will be avoided - fairly certain, and dead and sick junkies lead to criminal prosecutions - dealers avoid bad supplies.

Basic doesn't mean correct. You are assuming normal market forces will reign, and ignoring the huge barriers to normal market operations that exist when a product is illegal. Building a reputation as having good product is just as likely to land a supplier in prison as having a poor reputation. When your product is illegal, any reputation is a liability.

Further, given law enforcement, the turnover of vendors is almost certainly fairly quick. No supplier is likely to have a long-term reputation for quality, which means costumers purchase from unknown dealers fairly often. In short, the mistake is assuming that a black market functions like a market.

 

[WhoWee]

Basic doesn't mean correct. You are assuming normal market forces will reign, and ignoring the huge barriers to normal market operations that exist when a product is illegal. Building a reputation as having good product is just as likely to land a supplier in prison as having a poor reputation. When your product is illegal, any reputation is a liability.

Further, given law enforcement, the turnover of vendors is almost certainly fairly quick. No supplier is likely to have a long-term reputation for quality, which means costumers purchase from unknown dealers fairly often. In short, the mistake is assuming that a black market functions like a market.

I'm sure we can go back and forth for days. This is the post that started the drug discussion:

"One more scenario to consider - in the real world. Please consider the illegal drug world - specifically heroin. The consumers ate addicted and will basically buy whatever is available. However, competition alone seems to have developed a set of minimum standards. When the standards are violated, people might die or become ill, and the supplier goes out of business (shot, stabbed, incarcerated, etc.) and the supply goes back to normal. Can you think of an industry that is more corrupt than illegal drugs - that self regulates? "

I never intended to make a case beyond the basic observation that the "industry" seems to have developed some standards on it's own.

 

[ParticleGrl]

I never intended to make a case beyond the basic observation that the "industry" seems to have developed some standards on it's own.

And my point is that there is absolutely no reason to think that's true. The proportion of overdose to use doesn't seemed to have changed much, if it all.

 

[WhoWee]

And my point is that there is absolutely no reason to think that's true. The proportion of overdose to use doesn't seemed to have changed much, if it all.

How are you reaching that conclusion - if there wasn't a level of self regulation (given the greed and violence inherent) the occurences of bad drugs should be increasing.

 

[ParticleGrl]

How are you reaching that conclusion - if there wasn't a level of self regulation (given the greed and violence inherent) the occurences of bad drugs should be increasing.

OR, more people will avoid the market completely and look for alternatives, like illegal prescriptions, which have the advantage of being professionally filled by a pharmacist.

 

[WhoWee]

OR, more people will avoid the market completely and look for alternatives, like illegal prescriptions, which have the advantage of being professionally filled by a pharmacist.

I'm talking specifically about heroin. They might take other drugs?

 

[Evo]

What? This is so off topic...