Why do we differentiate in physics and why twice?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reasons for differentiation in physics, particularly in the context of wave functions and quantum mechanics. Participants explore the significance of first and second derivatives, their implications for understanding physical phenomena, and the mathematical processes involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes differentiation as a method to understand the underlying function from its integral, using water flow as an analogy.
  • Another participant explains that the first derivative indicates the rate of change of a wave function, while the second derivative reflects how that rate itself changes, which is crucial for understanding momentum and kinetic energy in quantum mechanics.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of notation, clarifying that the wave function depends on position and provides the correct derivatives of the wave function, demonstrating the mathematical steps involved.
  • Further elaboration includes the relationship between momentum and derivatives in quantum mechanics, highlighting the role of the Hamiltonian operator and its implications for the harmonic oscillator's ground state.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and interpretation of differentiation in physics, with some clarifying mathematical points while others seek foundational explanations. No consensus is reached on the broader implications of these concepts.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the complexity of notation and the need for careful mathematical treatment, particularly regarding the relationship between wave functions and their derivatives. There are unresolved aspects related to the foundational understanding of these concepts.

Physou
Messages
17
Reaction score
0
I have a basic understanding of the reason why we look for derivative or integration in Physics, based on the water flow example, where integration is the process of accumulating the varying water flow rate "2x" , while we reverse to the water flow rate by differentiating " x squared " the integral of 2x. So I understand that in general we differentiate when we know the integration, ie the cumulative effect of a function but we want to know the function ? am I right ? given my limited knowledge I don't understand why we differentiate ( and also why twice ? ) in the picture attached
psi.jpg
. I will be very grateful for any help with basic terms. Thank you !
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
In this context, the first derivative tells you how fast ##\psi## would change as you move along the X axis. The second derivative quantifies the sense that ##\psi## changes "faster and faster" (or slower and slower) as you move along. These numbers happen to be important for quantum objects, because they are related to the momentum and kinetic energy. Their relationship (via Schroedinger's equation) governs how the object evolves in space and time, which in turn let's us predict the probabilities of various outcomes of mesurements/experiments.

This .. http://www.felderbooks.com/papers/psi.html .. is one of the many resources that I found useful when I was trying to understand this stuff.
 
Last edited:
Thank you so much for your explanation and also for the link .. there are many more hours of reading ahead of me !
 
First of all, this is an abuse of notation. A state ket doesn't depend on ##x##. It's the wave function, i.e., the position representation of the state ket that depends on ##x##:
$$\psi(x)=\langle x|\psi \rangle.$$
Now you have the wave function
$$\psi(x)=\exp(-\omega x^2/2),$$
and you take derivatives as usual. Your first derivative is correct. Using the chain rule you get
$$\psi'(x)=-\omega x \exp(-\omega x^2/2)=-\omega x \psi(x).$$
The 2nd derivative is then given by the product rule
$$\psi''(x)=-\omega \psi(x)-\omega x \psi'(x)=-\omega \psi(x)+\omega^2 x^2\psi(x).$$
So also your 2nd derivative is correct. So where is your problem?

In this case the motivation to do differentiation is that in the position representation, the momentum is represented by derivatives, i.e., (when using units with ##\hbar=1##)
$$\hat{p} \psi(x)=-\mathrm{i} \psi'(x).$$
The Hamilton operator of the harmonic oscillator is given by
$$\hat{H}=\frac{\hat{p}^2}{2m}+\frac{m \omega^2}{2} \hat{x}^2.$$
In the position reprsentation the position operator is just multplication with ##x##. Thus you get
$$\hat{H} \psi(x)=-\frac{1}{2m} \psi''(x)+\frac{m \omega^2}{2} x^2 \psi(x).$$
Now instead of the above used wave function, use
$$\Psi_0(x)=\exp \left (-\frac{m \omega x^2}{2} \right).$$
then you get
$$\hat{H} \Psi_0(x)=-\frac{1}{2m} [-m \omega \Psi_0+m^2 \omega^2 \Psi_0]+\frac{m \omega^2 x^2}{2} \Psi_0(x)=\frac{\omega}{2} \Psi_0(x),$$
which shows you that ##\Psi_0## is an eigenfunction of the Hamiltonian with eigenvalue ##\omega/2##. In fact, it's the ground state of the harmonic oscillator!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: dlgoff

Similar threads

Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K