Wien's Law & Earth Emission Spectra: Investigating the discrepancy

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the discrepancies between Wien's displacement law predictions and observed emission spectra of the Earth, particularly focusing on the peak wavelength of thermal emission. Participants explore the implications of these findings in the context of atmospheric physics and blackbody radiation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that emission spectra indicate a temperature of 280K with a peak around 18 microns, while Wien's law suggests a peak at approximately 10 microns for that temperature.
  • One participant questions how the peak wavelength of 10 microns was determined, given the observed data.
  • Another participant states that according to Wien's law, a temperature of 280K should not correlate with a peak at 18 microns, suggesting a potential issue with the data presented.
  • A participant mentions using a calculator that confirms 280K corresponds to a peak of about 10.35 microns, while a peak at 18 microns would imply a much lower temperature of 161K.
  • Some participants speculate that the blackbody approximation may not be valid in this context.
  • One participant points out that the absorption characteristics of atmospheric gases, particularly H2O and CO2, may influence the emission spectrum, suggesting that the emission could be dominated by water vapor.
  • Another participant proposes that the emission spectrum may not represent the true Earth's spectrum but rather an idealized spectrum of an Earth-like planet.
  • One participant references a supervisor's work indicating that the Earth spectrum peaks at 15-18 microns, suggesting that this could be related to atmospheric temperature rather than surface temperature.
  • Another participant elaborates on the idea that the observed emission temperature might reflect atmospheric conditions, proposing that temperature distributions and molecular modes could affect the emission characteristics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the validity of the observed emission spectra and their relationship to Wien's law. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the implications of the findings.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the data sources and the assumptions underlying the blackbody approximation, as well as the potential influence of atmospheric composition on emission spectra.

natski
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Hi,

I have found several links using google to emission spectra of the Earth:

http://lasp.colorado.edu/~bagenal/1010/SESSIONS/13.Light.html
http://www.xylenepower.com/
http://spaceguard.esa.int/NScience/n...y/emission.htm

All of which indicate a temperature of 280K and peak clearly at around 18microns. However, Wien's displacement law indicates that the peak from thermal emission of the Earth should be at around 10 microns.

Many of these websites are indeed specifically about Wien's law and yet these two values do not correlate at all. What is going on?

Natski
 
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natski said:
Hi,

All of which indicate a temperature of 280K and peak clearly at around 18microns. However, Wien's displacement law indicates that the peak from thermal emission of the Earth should be at around 10 microns.

Many of these websites are indeed specifically about Wien's law and yet these two values do not correlate at all. What is going on?
How did one determine it should be 10 microns?

This figure from the first link cited shows about 18 microns.

http://lasp.colorado.edu/~bagenal/1010/graphics/earth_ir_emission.gif
 
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Zealous crackpots seeking validation on the net, natski. Is a common affliction.
 
From Wien's displacement law 280K would give a peak at about 10 microns. I don't know how they came up with that graph but the theoretical black body line should not be 280K if it peaks at 18 microns.
 
I used the calculator here -

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/wien.html#c3

And 280K corresponds to a wavelength of 10.35 microns - peak, but

a peak wavelength of 18 microns correspond to 161 K.


What's up with that?

Does this imply that the blackbody approximation is not valid?
 
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http://wxpaos09.colorado.edu/radiation/background.html" page and a couple of others I found show the peak in the correct place. All I can assume is they've taken the emission spectrum from something else and drawn the theoretical curve on and assumed it was the Earth's temperature of ~280K.
 
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Looking at the absorbtivity plot on the page cited by Kurdt in the previous post, there is a conspicuous peak at around 18 microns for CO2 and a band where absorption by water for wavelengths above 18 microns.

The absorption in the atmosphere seems dominated by H2O with some contribution from CO2. Does this imply the emission is also dominated by H2O?
 
I'm by no means an expert Astro, but from what I can gather it is this NASA image that they have adapted.

http://origins.jpl.nasa.gov/habitable-planets/invest12.html

I don't think its a true Earth spectrum but an ideal spectrum of an Earth like planet which the ESA will be looking for with projects like DARWIN and NASA with their origins project.
 
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I think the emission spectra that peaks at 18 microns is correct, despite the fact it disagrees with Wien's law. The reason for this is that my supervisor, who specializes in atmospherics, showed me the bible of atmospherics and in it the Earth spectra was also peaking at 15-18 microns, labeled as 300K. (I will post the name of the book soon, just looking for it now)

I thought at first this could be due a doppler shift or something but these observations should not have a moving observer. The book in question makes very little reference to Wien's law however.

Another possible explanation is that this emission temperature is the temperature of the atmosphere and not the surface. Perhaps a surface temp of 300K implies an atmospheric temp of 200K which implies an emission peak at 18 microns?

Natski
 
  • #10
natski said:
Another possible explanation is that this emission temperature is the temperature of the atmosphere and not the surface. Perhaps a surface temp of 300K implies an atmospheric temp of 200K which implies an emission peak at 18 microns?
According to the emission spectrum on the page (Investigation Twelve: Detect giant planets by direct imaging, and study their properties.) cited by Kurdt, there is a peak at approximately 18 microns, and the broadening would have to do with the fact that there is a temperature distribution as well as doppler effect. Perhaps it implies that the atmosphere does not emit as a black body, since the molecules have rotational modes as well as vibrational modes (?). Ostensibly the emission is characteristic of a particular mode of a particular molecular species.
 

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