News Wisconsin labor protests it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days

[nismaratwork]

In one sense, it's the more honest solution. Everyone knows what the state or company is paying for and everyone knows the risks.

On the other hand, it's a worse deal for employees since governments are seen as more reliable than private companies when it comes to pensions.

The latter relies on some assumptions that might be a little shaky if the government is running high deficits on a routine basis. Just like with Social Security, you're relying on future voters choosing to honor those commitments by continuing to pay higher and higher taxes.

It's nice to say the government is legally and morally bound to honor the promises it made, but I tend to be just a little bit afraid that all of the young people in the nation might not see themselves morally bound to fulfill promises I made to myself (or at least promises the government I elected made to me).

You should be concerned, we don't.

 

[turbo]

There is a responsibility to only promise what the state is likely able to deliver on. It's tough to plan a retirement if the pension turns out to be less than what was promised.

Even more grating to public employees, their benefits are negotiated, and they are underpaid compared to private-sector employees. So to have their pensions and health benefits cut after years of service is a real slap in the face. I have been a party to contract negotiations, and labor traditionally has to look at their compensation as a package. Give up some wages in return for better retirement benefits and health-care? That is standard operating procedure. Now after years of making those compromises to try to ensure a secure retirement, LePage roars in wanting to take back those benefits.

A NYT/CBS poll published Tuesday shows that US citizens oppose weakening public unions and taking back negotiated benefits by a margin of about 2:1.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/01/us/01poll.html

 

[nismaratwork]

Lets be clear... this is not a group of idiots. Our budgets are disasters because of entitlements, and defense.

This is just sticking it to the poor, which is like a comedian ripping on the Amish... very little feedback that matters. Why is it wise to go after unions and teachers, but it's a mortal sin to tax the crap out of the obscenely wealthy?... answer: Who has the voice?

Everything is corrupt, consider unions the working man's check, and voice. What a shock there is an attempt to eviscerate them.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

State officials said Thursday that damage to the marble inside and out the State Capitol would cost an estimated $7.5 million.

Much of the damage apparently has come from tape used to put up signs and placards at the Capitol.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117340918.html


Would anyone like to comment on this estimate. $7.5m to remove tape from marble?

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117340918.html


Would anyone like to comment on this estimate. $7.5m to remove tape from marble?

I think the issue is that it's a "historical" building, thus bound to certain cleaning. Frankly, it smells like everything else coming out of Wisconsin lately... the southbound end of a northbound cow.

I'm mortally tired of these games, this rhetorical nonsense... this is union busting, and the people doing the busting don't have the balls to admit they're just Pinkerton 2.0

On the bright side, it's always fun to watch people like Walker self-destruct.

 

[turbo]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117340918.html


Would anyone like to comment on this estimate. $7.5m to remove tape from marble?

If the governor's brother is going to clean up the tape residue, I'd say that the estimate is low. Tax-payers had better bend over and brace for impact.

 

[nismaratwork]

If the governor's brother is going to clean up the tape residue, I'd say that the estimate is low. Tax-payers had better bend over and brace for impact.

*southern draw* Yessir, going to be like runnin' backwards though a cornfield, nekkid.


The protesters are peacefully leaving by the way, because a judge ruled that during business hours, they cannot legally keep them out, even in droves.

Poor Walker... he's the brick sinking his party in WI, and now Gingrich is back?

Obama must be laughing his nuts off.

 

[Gokul43201]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117340918.html


Would anyone like to comment on this estimate. $7.5m to remove tape from marble?

I'd like to ask the question that no one's asking - perhaps I'm just being intensely dense in not getting this.

From the article: "...estimates of damage to marble includes $6 million to repair damaged marble inside the Capitol, $1 million for damage outside and $500,000 for costs to supervise the damage."

What exactly does that last bit mean? What does supervision of damage involve?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

From the article: "...estimates of damage to marble includes $6 million to repair damaged marble inside the Capitol, $1 million for damage outside and $500,000 for costs to supervise the damage."

I will volunteer to watch people remove tape from marble for $500k!

 

[turbo]

I will volunteer to watch people remove tape from marble for $500k!

Can I sub-contract the watching? I would gladly drive out there and camp in my Forester for a share of that! I can supervise tape-adhesive removal with the best of them!

 

[lisab]

I will volunteer to watch people remove tape from marble for $500k!

I'll take that job for $499k!

 

[turbo]

I'll take that job for $499k!

BIDDING WAR!

I'll do it for a dollar less than you, as long as I can make the trip and pretend to fulfill the contract.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'll do it for the fun of watching people justify that kind of baksheesh to scrub MARBLE.

 

[Proton Soup]

i will do the entire job as an independent contractor for only $5 mil

 

[nismaratwork]

Can I still watch?

 

[Gokul43201]

When I want entertainment, I just look to see what legislative actions our Government is working hard on. For instance, I found out today, that a pair of WI Republicans are proposing to ban prank calls: http://badgerherald.com/news/2011/02/28/bill_circulating_in_.php

Although representatives deny any connection to the recent prank call on the governor, two legislators began circulating a bill Monday that would ban making trick calls masking the caller’s true identity.

Sen. Mary Lazich, R-Waukesha, and Rep. Mark Honadel, R-Milwaukee, authored a bill that would prohibit tricking the call’s recipient into believing the caller is someone they are not for malicious purposes.

For the record, I do not find the actual content of the bill as funny as I find the thought that it was likely written in reaction to Walker's enprankment.

 

[nismaratwork]

When I want entertainment, I just look to see what legislative actions our Government is working hard on. For instance, I found out today, that a pair of WI Republicans are proposing to ban prank calls: http://badgerherald.com/news/2011/02/28/bill_circulating_in_.php
For the record, I do not find the actual content of the bill as funny as I find the thought that it was likely written in reaction to Walker's enprankment.

I'm so torn between amusement, apathy, and extreme hatred.

edit: Oh, and what about the senate resoluton to have the "absentees" aressted? The head of the police union called it, "insane", and the R spoke said it was a non-binding resolution. What a bunch of miserable hacks... they can't even decieve well..

May they all be afflicted with a variety of lethal diseases.

 

[Norman]

May they all be afflicted with a variety of lethal diseases.

If we are going to curse, let's curse well.

How about my ol' favorite: May they be consumed by a tidal wave of diarrhea.

 

[Proton Soup]

Can I still watch?

i will install a webcam.

 

[WhoWee]

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117340918.html


Would anyone like to comment on this estimate. $7.5m to remove tape from marble?

Must be a union job?

 

[nismaratwork]

Must be a union job?

What are you doing in insurance when your true calling is clearly stand-up comedy?

 

[nismaratwork]

Hmmmm

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/03/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T1

Ammo found outside the capital... and now Walker is threatening... again... to lay of 1500 workers. My view is that would be political suicide.

 

[Al68]

I'm mortally tired of these games, this rhetorical nonsense... this is union busting, and the people doing the busting don't have the balls to admit they're just Pinkerton 2.0

Are you aware that the second part of that sentence contradicts the first? Was that on purpose? Kind of like saying that you just can't stand people who just let their sentences trail off without...

PERSONALLY, I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE TYPE IN ALL CAPS!

 

[nismaratwork]

If we are going to curse, let's curse well.

How about my ol' favorite: May they be consumed by a tidal wave of diarrhea.

"May your armpits be infested by the fleas of a thousand camels" classic.

Yes... I like yours!

@Al68: It's not contradictory, it's simply demonstrative.

 

[CAC1001]

Hmmmm

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/03/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T1

Ammo found outside the capital... and now Walker is threatening... again... to lay of 1500 workers. My view is that would be political suicide.

How so? It isn't his fault the Democrats fled the capital to stop the vote. Also, at that point, Walker will not have a choice. He is stretching this out as long as possible until he has no other option. If he caves to the unions, IMO that will be political suicide, as he will lose all credibility. He has to ride this out to the end.

 

[nismaratwork]

How so? It isn't his fault the Democrats fled the capital to stop the vote. Also, at that point, Walker will not have a choice. He is stretching this out as long as possible until he has no other option. If he caves to the unions, IMO that will be political suicide, as he will lose all credibility. He has to ride this out to the end.

Yes, it will be political suicide, but so is riding this out; he's already on a ballistic trajectory.


Oh, and images like this aren't going to help:
http://www.northlandsnewscenter.com/news/local/Wisconsin-Rep-Nick-Milroy-Tackled-By-Capitol-Police--117400318.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLLR2QCkcB4

Walker is done, was done the moment the democrats left the state; unions were FORMED in the face of harsher actions than this.

 

[CAC1001]

How will it be political suicide if he has no other choice? Again, it is the Democrats who left the state who are leading him to this. Also, the public's view will probably be positive once the budget is repaired.

 

[nismaratwork]

How will it be political suicide if he has no other choice? Again, it is the Democrats who left the state who are leading him to this. Also, the public's view will probably be positive once the budget is repaired.

He's placed himself between Scylla and Charibdis.

 

[nismaratwork]

Dick-move made:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/04/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

 

[Char. Limit]

Dick-move made:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/03/04/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

This is starting to scare me. I mean, what the hell is going on when police are tackling people for trying to enter a building? And Scott Walker is blackmailing the Democrats?

What has US politics become?

 

[CAC1001]

Once the bill passes (assuming it passes), and the budget is repaired and the public sees the world doesn't collapse for the public-sector workers, I think Walker will be fine.

Also I think it is that he has no choice. If he gives in, he loses. If he rides it out, he could lose, or score big. What will need to be watched is the public opinion within Wisconsin as the budget there is repaired, provided the bill passes.

 

[CAC1001]

This is starting to scare me. I mean, what the hell is going on when police are tackling people for trying to enter a building? And Scott Walker is blackmailing the Democrats?

What has US politics become?

How is Scott Walker blackmailing the Democrats? They are the ones who fled into hiding, then will try to blame him when layoffs start having to be issued. I'd say they are the ones blackmailing him.

 

[turbo]

How is Scott Walker blackmailing the Democrats? They are the ones who fled into hiding, then will try to blame him when layoffs start having to be issued. I'd say they are the ones blackmailing him.

They recuse themselves to deny the GOP majority a quorum. If you don't like that, please argue the facts, not the headlines.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

They recuse themselves to deny the GOP majority a quorum. If you don't like that, please argue the facts, not the headlines.

Then they should return any money I am paying to their salary for them to do their job. And they did flee and hide. We didn't find out where they went for a couple days after they went missing.

 

[Char. Limit]

How is Scott Walker blackmailing the Democrats? They are the ones who fled into hiding, then will try to blame him when layoffs start having to be issued. I'd say they are the ones blackmailing him.

Here's how I see it. Democrats leave so that unions don't get busted. Republican governor threatens to lay off employees unless the Democrats return. That's blackmail, clear and simple.

 

[CAC1001]

Here's how I see it. Democrats leave so that unions don't get busted. Republican governor threatens to lay off employees unless the Democrats return. That's blackmail, clear and simple.

I have to disagree. Because the Democrats had no right to leave in the first place. They are stalling the vote. If the vote can't take place, then other measures will have to be taken. That's not blackmail. Wisconsin is a democratic system. The way democracy works is if your party loses to the point that the other party can do what they want, then tough. That's just how it works. If the people don't like it, they can vote the party out for overreaching and vote the other party back in. If the people of Wisconsin really don't like this, I think they might even be able to oust Walker via a recall come January 2012.

 

[AlephZero]

The way that politics works is that you use whatever tools you have, within the rules, to get your way. What is the essential difference between preventing a vote by making the meeting inquorate, or preventing a vote by filibustering? Not much.

For example in the UK parliament, there have been MPs from Northern Ireland who have been elected and repeatedly re-elected, when everybody voting for them knows perfectly well that they will never actually take their seats and participate in the business of parliament, as a matter of principle. The one and only point in their election manifesto is to prevent anybody else from representing the constituency, and the electorate support them in that action.

So I'm not sure how "forcing" elected representatives to do anything (especially something against their will) can be callled "democracy".

 

[CAC1001]

So I'm not sure how "forcing" elected representatives to do anything (especially something against their will) can be callled "democracy".

The filibuster is a parliamentary procedure. No one is forcing elected representatives to do anything against their will, they can vote against the bill.

 

[Al68]

Then they should return any money I am paying to their salary for them to do their job. And they did flee and hide. We didn't find out where they went for a couple days after they went missing.

It's like an old-fashioned filibuster just like Robert Byrd used to do. Well, except they don't have to stand and talk the whole time. Or be present at session. Or be in town. Or in the state.

But other than that, it's just an old-fashioned honest filibuster.

 

[Al68]

Here's how I see it. Democrats leave so that unions don't get busted. Republican governor threatens to lay off employees unless the Democrats return. That's blackmail, clear and simple.

Pretty big difference between how you see it and reality. The reality is that no union busting is being advocated by anyone as a matter of objective fact, and using the word blackmail to refer to the Governor instead of the Dem. legislators seems to ignore which side is trying to use the democratic process and which side is blocking it to try to demand their way.

Those Democrats are using fraud, deception, hateful propaganda, outright lies, and obstruction to try to undermine the democratic process.

 

[Char. Limit]

Pretty big difference between how you see it and reality. The reality is that no union busting is being advocated by anyone as a matter of objective fact, and using the word blackmail to refer to the Governor instead of the Dem. legislators seems to ignore which side is trying to use the democratic process and which side is blocking it to try to demand their way.

Those Democrats are using fraud, deception, hateful propaganda, outright lies, and obstruction to try to undermine the democratic process.

Hehehe, you're funny. You think I support the Democrats in this. I don't. I think they're all idiots.

 

[Al68]

Hehehe, you're funny. You think I support the Democrats in this. I don't. I think they're all idiots.

What are you talking about? I said nothing about who I think you support. Did you accidentally reply to the wrong post?

 

[nismaratwork]

Then they should return any money I am paying to their salary for them to do their job. And they did flee and hide. We didn't find out where they went for a couple days after they went missing.

They can't collect paychecks out of state, that started early on.

@Char.Limit & @AlephZero: Agreed.

What do I mean? It is blackmail, but then, that's part of the toolkit as well. In this case, it just happens that Walker is doing a poor job of it, but a hilarious job of political suicide.

 

[Gokul43201]

Then they should return any money I am paying to their salary for them to do their job.

They might just as easily argue that they are doing this to justify their salary. If they had simply stayed put, the Dems would not have had a voice in in the issue, and the bill would have been passed without even listening to Dem amendment proposals or going through any serious debate. Their absconding is therefore the only way they can represent the people that voted them in, which is essentially what their job is. Basically, everyone who is protesting Walker's bill, or opposes the bill in general knows that any protest is possible only because the so-called "fighting 14" have made it possible.

I think some of these 14 - those from the redder districts - will definitely be in trouble, but others will only have gained political capital from this.

 

[Gokul43201]

In this case, it just happens that Walker is doing a poor job of it, but a hilarious job of political suicide.

I think Walker may survive this and serve out at least the rest of his term, without being recalled. He has two things on his side:

1. Time. He has until November before any recall proceedings can begin. That's a lot of time. People have short memories and can't be bothered to vote unless they really need to. If Walker lays low for the rest of the year, after this bill passes, he will probably be fine.

2. Lack of opponents. If a recall election happens, and I think getting the signatures will be the easy part, Walker will likely have to beat Barrett. And Barrett never really excited the Wisconsin Dems in the first place. I think it might take a Feingold to unseat Walker, but I'm calling that a long shot.

 

[nismaratwork]

I think Walker may survive this and serve out at least the rest of his term, without being recalled. He has two things on his side:

1. Time. He has until November before any recall proceedings can begin. That's a lot of time. People have short memories and can't be bothered to vote unless they really need to. If Walker lays low for the rest of the year, after this bill passes, he will probably be fine.

2. Lack of opponents. If a recall election happens, and I think getting the signatures will be the easy part, Walker will likely have to beat Barrett. And Barrett never really excited the Wisconsin Dems in the first place. I think it might take a Feingold to unseat Walker, but I'm calling that a long shot.

I think you misunderstand what I mean by political suicide...

...I mean that he will not be a viable candidate in the future, and he's burned through more than his share of political capital and public good-will already.

I mean... this new $250 per diem fine... What a sad and petty manuever.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

...I mean that he will not be a viable candidate in the future, and he's burned through more than his share of political capital and public good-will already.

After all this who could possibly want to be the governor. I'm amazed anyone really wants to be a politician the first place.

 

[nismaratwork]

After all this who could possibly want to be the governor. I'm amazed anyone really wants to be a politician the first place.

It is sad isn't it?... yet it goes a long way towards explaining the behaviour of politicians. It's an ongoing area of research, but the prevalence of major personality disorders or their traits in politicians is not cheering.

Who wants to be a politician?

1.) Someone who wants raw power over money; proxies for power are not enough.
2.) Idealists, good men and women who promptly leave (Jim Webb).
3.) Ideologues, who are not happy until more people march to their beat.
4.) Sociopaths, perfectly suitied once ensconsed in power to be politicians at every level.
5.) People who want fame and power, and power through fame or notoriety.
6.) People who are not mentally ill, but are deeply controlling.
-subset: people who are afraid
-subset: people who truly believe they know the RIGHT way.
7.) People so deeply in denial of their nature, they seek to deny it in their lives (Haggard, Craigslist Congressman).

That is my view, and an emerging view based on casual papers... nothing causal. It certainly doesn't amount to a brain-trust, or even competance in politics, and it bodes badly because again... people generally do not want such immense fame and responsiblity.

 

[WhoWee]

Honestly, that's not as damning as you seem to think. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt. "so you can find out what's in it" = "so you can see its effects as they happen." Certainly this in no way supports your contention that no one read the bill.

Details are still emerging: my bold
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/BachmannBlastsHidden105BObamacareTab/2011/03/08/id/388679

"Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., says she is willing to see the government shut down unless a $105 billion appropriation the Obama administration and the Democratic Congress hid in Obamacare is returned and the GOP House leadership will meet Tuesday afternoon to consider its next step. Her comments came on the heels of her making the funding-deception revelation in an exclusive Newsmax interview.

Bachmann said members of Congress didn’t know the money to implement Obamacare was in the healthcare legislation until a Congressional Research Service report came out in February, because they couldn’t read the bill before they voted and it passed.

“This is an enormous sum of money – this was tucked away inside the Obamacare bill,” Bachmann Monday said on Fox News. “People say: ‘Well, what’s wrong with you members of Congress, why didn’t you know it’s there?’ It’s because we didn’t get the bill until literally a couple of hours before we were supposed to vote on it, and it’s 2,900 pages long.

“What they did is they took the bill – this amount of money – split it up and put it in different sections of the bill,” she said. “Nobody knew until February when it [the report] came out. We had an eagle eye from the Heritage Foundation, Ernest Istook, a former [Oklahoma] member of Congress, found this in this report – he wrote a few blog posts. One of my colleagues, [Rep.} Steve King from Iowa, also found out about this, and we’ve been trying to do everything we can to alert people and say: Give the money back!”

Bachmann said she thinks the deception was intentional. "

 

[nismaratwork]

Michelle Bachmann is neither a reliable source, nor is she any brighter than the wood she appears to have been whittled from.