Work opportunities for physicists

[Jamin2112]

These are very different scenarios, as a college degree is often used as a filter.

A Bachelor degree is only a filter because so many people are getting Bachelor degrees. If the same number of people got PhDs, then a PhD would be the new filter. Conversely, if no one went to college, then a college degree would cease to be a requirement (and there would be no shortage of highly skilled workers including engineers; they would just be produced through a different system that would be more efficient).

 

[Jamin2112]

Do you have some data to back this up or is this just a personal observation?

There are few jobs where a college is actually required. The only sector I can think of where educational requirements are strictly adhered to is government. Yes, most white collar jobs in the private sector will "require" a college degree in the job listing, but in reality anyone who has proved they can do the job will have a shot at getting it, especially if they have a connection. If companies were really such educational snobs, then why do they usually not bother to verify whether a chosen hire actually has a degree?

 

[symbolipoint]

There are few jobs where a college is actually required. The only sector I can think of where educational requirements are strictly adhered to is government. Yes, most white collar jobs in the private sector will "require" a college degree in the job listing, but in reality anyone who has proved they can do the job will have a shot at getting it, especially if they have a connection. If companies were really such educational snobs, then why do they usually not bother to verify whether a chosen hire actually has a degree?

But they DO. Many companies still require college and university transcripts. They don't all require them just for applying. They want these just for those who they hire.

 

[jesse73]

Do you have some data to back this up or is this just a personal observation?

And even if this is true, you're only considering a snapshot in a person's career right at the beginning. A university degree will often allow you to advance a lot further in terms of scope of work and salary, even if you have to start in the same place.

The fact that the US has an underemployment problem has been news for a while.

One link but you can find many articles on it

http://www.usnews.com/education/blo...of-underemployment-in-the-student-debt-crisis
or the new york fed

http://www.newyorkfed.org/research/current_issues/ci20-1.pdfor just google "underemployment problem us college"

 

[avinashbaliyan]

The rockstar of Engineering world rightnow is Elon Musk and what he says in this interview as advise for young people/ enternpreneurs

http://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_mind_behind_tesla_spacex_solarcity

"STUDY PHYSICS"

Infact he inspired his second wife A beautifull Hollywood star to take a course in Quantum Mechanics

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/cel...ley-the-worlds-sexiest-quantum-physicist.html



i heard from my friends friend ... , the number 1 chance to get a Job at Spacex is PHD in physics , Masters can do as well ( Also an american citizenship as per US Govt rules ) .

In all the job postings at Tesla , Space x and other major research companies i can see they mention clearly A degree in Engineering, Physics ,...

I am an engineer ,i had little bit of pure physics while preparing for Engineering Entrance exams , but studying physics more deeply recently ( studying more now n now pure Physics) has helped to think more clearly , fast n new ideas ( no doubt about that , i can see the difference with my own conscious mind.)

 

[ModusPwnd]

I think its best not to listen to rockstars (read: outliers) for employment and career advice. The companies you list employ a negligible fraction of graduating physics majors.

 

[jesse73]

The rockstar of Engineering world rightnow is Elon Musk and what he says in this interview as advise for young people/ enternpreneurs

http://www.ted.com/talks/elon_musk_the_mind_behind_tesla_spacex_solarcity

"STUDY PHYSICS"

Infact he inspired his second wife A beautifull Hollywood star to take a course in Quantum Mechanics

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/cel...ley-the-worlds-sexiest-quantum-physicist.html
i heard from my friends friend ... , the number 1 chance to get a Job at Spacex is PHD in physics , Masters can do as well ( Also an american citizenship as per US Govt rules ) .

In all the job postings at Tesla , Space x and other major research companies i can see they mention clearly A degree in Engineering, Physics ,...

I am an engineer ,i had little bit of pure physics while preparing for Engineering Entrance exams , but studying physics more deeply recently ( studying more now n now pure Physics) has helped to think more clearly , fast n new ideas ( no doubt about that , i can see the difference with my own conscious mind.)

Or how about following this lead and not even going to college at all and see how that works out.
http://www.businessinsider.com/google-hiring-non-graduates-2013-6
http://www.thielfellowship.org/Another sign you might be misinformed is by talking about a PhD in physics as if it employability is the same for all physics phds from HEP theory to CM exp.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Outliers lie out in both directions. The unemployed and looking rate for physics grads in 2012 was 5%. Unemployment among recent college graduates was double or triple that.

 

[jesse73]

Outliers lie out in both directions. The unemployed and looking rate for physics grads in 2012 was 5%. Unemployment among recent college graduates was double or triple that.

Unemployed is not the same thing as being underemployed . The impression I get is that people are not looking to get underemployed but physicists tend to get underemployed particularly at the bachelors level.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Where some people see underemployment, others see a fussy prima donna who feels the world owes them a job of their choosing, and who are not in the least grateful for beating out that art history major for that job that's seemingly beneath them.

The 2012 AIP numbers have 5% unemployment, and 26% non-STEM employment. Dissatisfaction ranges between one-third (overall) and two-thirds (individual aspects). Let's take the bigger number and say that 5% are unemployed and 17% are underemployed. That's still a factor of 2 to 3 less than college graduates as a whole.

Outliers.

Recommended reading: http://www.forbes.com/sites/ciocent...the-truth-about-college-grad-underemployment/

 

[ParticleGrl]

Where some people see underemployment, others see a fussy prima donna who feels the world owes them a job of their choosing, and who are not in the least grateful for beating out that art history major for that job that's seemingly beneath them.

The 2012 AIP numbers have 5% unemployment, and 26% non-STEM employment. Dissatisfaction ranges between one-third (overall) and two-thirds (individual aspects). Let's take the bigger number and say that 5% are unemployed and 17% are underemployed. That's still a factor of 2 to 3 less than college graduates as a whole.

You missed the part-time employed, which is 20% of the employed bachelors. We don't have satisfaction numbers because they were excluded from the rest of the survey, but I think it wold be fair to add them to the underemployed. That will move it up to 36% or so underemployed, which is pretty close to the all-degree underemployment rate.

Also, I don't think its makes sense to compare the physics degree holders to all-undergrads. It would make more sense to compare them to something like engineering degrees, since the average physics major isn't deciding between art history and physics they are deciding between some engineering degree and physics.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Also, I don't think its makes sense to compare the physics degree holders to all-undergrads. It would make more sense to compare them to something like engineering degrees, since the average physics major isn't deciding between art history and physics they are deciding between some engineering degree and physics.

ParticleGrl, I find the above statement frankly rather dubious, because you are essentially assuming that the average physics major had weighed majoring in physics vs majoring in engineering. While this may be true for some, for the majority of students I doubt this was the case.

At least in my anecdotal experience, the physics majors that I knew had no interest whatsoever in pursuing engineering -- many physics majors, like many math majors, often spoke rather disparagingly of engineering majors (some of this was good-natured teasing, as engineering majors did the same for math & physics majors as well, but some of it was downright contempt). If anything, most physics majors I knew were deciding between a physics degree and a math degree (many in fact did both).

 

[Vanadium 50]

The bar is moving.

It started with "You can't get a job with a physics major!". That's not true, as physics majors have relatively lower unemployment than most majors.

Then it turned into "But you'll be underemployed!" Ignoring the fact that most entry level positions don't require or use everything from college" so the very concept is dubious, the odds are still less than for most majors.

Then it turned into "Engineering has better job prospects". It might. But why stop there? So does nursing - there's a huge shortage of nurses. And pipefitters. And welders - try and hire a welder. If college is supposed to be a trade school, why not an actual trade school.

Also, for those who complained that I don't know what it's like, I was starting out in the early 80's, when unemployment was even higher than it was today. And my first job definitely did not use all of my skills. I took it anyway, learned a lot, did a lot, and went on to graduate school after a year and a half. I didn't complain that I wasn't able to find a job that I was entitled to.

 

[Locrian]

Where some people see underemployment, others see a fussy prima donna who feels the world owes them a job of their choosing, and who are not in the least grateful for beating out that art history major for that job that's seemingly beneath them.

Strongly disagree with this sentiment. I don’t see people here who believe the world owes them a job of their choosing. I see people who worked hard in a difficult major and are upset at the quality of work available to them.

 

[atyy]

Also, for those who complained that I don't know what it's like, I was starting out in the early 80's, when unemployment was even higher than it was today. And my first job definitely did not use all of my skills. I took it anyway, learned a lot, did a lot, and went on to graduate school after a year and a half. I didn't complain that I wasn't able to find a job that I was entitled to.

What was that job? Did you have to go grad school to improve your job prospects, or did you go to grad school because your job prospects were poor?

Also, what about considerations of paying off college loans? Was that different then and now?

 

[Locrian]

If college is supposed to be a trade school, why not an actual trade school.

Aha! I wondered how long it would take you to fall back into the same old "vocational" stuff you've been posting for (seemingly?) years. At least you didn't use the word.

So let's be clear: No one here argued that it should be a trade school, or that they thought it was a trade school, or suggested that it act like a trade school.

Other readers should see the link and all the links it links to for background.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The fact that I have been posting it for years doesn't make it less true. And the argument "But I worked so hard! I'm entitled!" is not very convincing. The person doing the hiring is not impressed by how entitled you feel your degree has made you. She's interested in how you can make her money.

To answer one of the questions, I did IT work (in the very early days of the mainframe to PC transition) and I had about $27K in FY14 dollars in debt upon graduation. I deferred graduate school because I wanted the chance to start whacking away at the debt, the opportunity to learn something from the world of commerce, and time for my final grades to come in. I started as a full-time temp - I sold that as a "try before you buy" deal, and by the end of the summer I was permanent. What I ended up doing was working with business units on how they could use the computers - particularly the mainframes, which were largely idle except during payroll and the end of the month - we had to measurably improve performance.

Was the technical knowledge of an a SB in physics necessary? Absolutely not. Was the experience in earning a SB helpful? Absolutely.

Since I am writing, I should also try and correct one other misperception. The title of this thread is "Work opportunities for physicists". If you have a BS in physics, you're someone who has studied physics. You are not yet a physicist.

 

[Locrian]

The fact that I have been posting it for years doesn't make it less true.

No, but the fact that it's misinterpreting people's posts and is disconnected from the reality of how different degrees vary in employability does make it less true. I've repeatedly argued against it and you've never put forward any response. You repeat yourself and I dissect it, over and over. That's why I'm in the habbit of linking, so I don't have to retype myself every time.

And the argument "But I worked so hard! I'm entitled!" is not very convincing. The person doing the hiring is not impressed by how entitled you feel your degree has made you.

But that's the point - no one is saying this. It's a dishonest charicature of people's complaints. No one uses these words (entitled, owes, vocational, trade) except you.

Since I am writing, I should also try and correct one other misperception. The title of this thread is "Work opportunities for physicists". If you have a BS in physics, you're someone who has studied physics. You are not yet a physicist.

No doubt that's true - ZapperZ has certainly made it more than a few times, if memory serves me. The distance in education, skills and employability between a BS and a PhD is big.

 

[Locrian]

On another note, as I mentioned in this thread, these "value of physics BS" type threads are a dime a dozen, and the converstaion has been going on for at least a decade.

I wonder what everyone would think about having a stickied thread that linked to other threads, and that could be a single place for the conversation to take place. The goal would be for that specific discussion to take up less bandwidth, not more.

 

[homeomorphic]

The fact that I have been posting it for years doesn't make it less true. And the argument "But I worked so hard! I'm entitled!" is not very convincing. The person doing the hiring is not impressed by how entitled you feel your degree has made you. She's interested in how you can make her money.

That's entirely missing the point. The REAL question starts a lot earlier. The STUDENT is the one asking, "How is your physics degree going to make me money?"

Merely saying that you should follow your interests and then if you ask that you want to be able to actually use what you spend so much time studying, then you're some little entitled brat. Now, THAT is what I call unconvincing.

For those of us struggling to find a good job, it's too late, now, but if we had to do it all over again, regardless of what we think about our own situation and the non-issue of what we supposedly think we "deserve", we'd probably choose something else, and we aren't going to be giving our major a very high recommendation to anyone else, either. But it's fine if someone understands the risks and still wants to be a physics major. The point is only to understand the risks.

 

[Lavabug]

I wonder what everyone would think about having a stickied thread that linked to other threads, and that could be a single place for the conversation to take place. The goal would be for that specific discussion to take up less bandwidth, not more.

It would be helpful, I think. It would certainly cut down on the repeat discussions that most of us have read in full that while do go off on interesting tangents, they rarely help the OP's situation (ie: I want a job/a job better than the high school-level job I currently have and cannot find it) or anyone in the same shoes.

It would be great to have a central resource for people who are already on their way in a BS program and unsure of pursuing grad school, because almost invariably IME, they are likely running headfirst unprepared into a fussy and picky job market that has little patience for the inexperienced, never mind the generalist. Or for dissuading prospective BS students in Physics, more pessimistically. The best I can do so far besides parroting "network" is re-post the "companies that have recently hired new Physics BS graduates" APS page for ideas. I wish I had better advice to give to the OP after a year of applying to jobs (unsuccessfully), but I don't. The story has a happy ending though, I got into a promising graduate program.

I also agree that making a grossly distorted caricature of people's situation is not fair, in fact it is quite sinister. Let's try to provide a solution for the people who worked hard to get into college, often working at the same time to defray the costs, finish, try to find an entry level job etc. instead of turning our back on them or attacking some straw-man argument about entitlement issues. How about some benefit of the doubt?

 

[jesse73]

What was that job? Did you have to go grad school to improve your job prospects, or did you go to grad school because your job prospects were poor?

Also, what about considerations of paying off college loans? Was that different then and now?

Here is some data showing how time unemployed is different now then in the 80s. Obviously people would feel better if their longer time unemployed compared to the 80s ended with not being underemployed.

http://www.hamiltonproject.org/imag...ploads/charts/duration_unemployment_large.png

Another plot which is for all college graduates not just recent grads which would be ideal.
http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-BC416A_NUMBG_NS_20091201220755.gif

The bereau of labor statistics has been discussing underemployment (look up "The Nation’s underemployed in the “Great Recession” of 2007–09""). It shouldn't be written off if the people keeping track of these stats see it as an issue

 

[Choppy]

I also agree that making a grossly distorted caricature of people's situation is not fair, in fact it is quite sinister. Let's try to provide a solution for the people who worked hard to get into college, often working at the same time to defray the costs, finish, try to find an entry level job etc. instead of turning our back on them or attacking some straw-man argument about entitlement issues. How about some benefit of the doubt?

So let's go back to the question that the original poster posed - a question that is asked here rather often... you have someone who is considering a physics degree, reads threads like this one and sees a lot of people giving blanket advice such as "a physics degree is useless" and "do engineering instead of physics" and who then feels a certain degree of apprehension about a personal decision.

One of the things about these threads though is that the original query comes with the opportunity to state conditions that are particularly important. Then people can reply, factoring in the stated concerns on an individual basis. (Not that they always do, but they can.)

The facts of the matter are that different posters are going to place different values on the problem, largely based on personal experience. Some have had a hard time finding employment after dedicating years their lives to this field and so of course it's going to be important to them to warn others of what they see as mistakes. Others, like myself, have had things turn out quite well, and it's important to me to point out the positives that come with following a physics degree. I think anyone with these concerns benefits from hearing both sides.

 

[ModusPwnd]

In my experience the ones that did very well with their degree did what you did - they went to graduate school for medical physics. I think that is a thing most here can agree on. Physics is a degree best complimented with a graduate degree. By coupling it with the right graduate degree one can get specific marketable skills.

Often these types of threads are by students trying to get a career with only a BS. In that case I think the best advice is to go to graduate school, or consider engineering if you don't want graduate school.

 

[jesse73]

In my experience the ones that did very well with their degree did what you did - they went to graduate school for medical physics. I think that is a thing most here can agree on. Physics is a degree best complimented with a graduate degree. By coupling it with the right graduate degree one can get specific marketable skills.

Often these types of threads are by students trying to get a career with only a BS. In that case I think the best advice is to go to graduate school, or consider engineering if you don't want graduate school.

Exactly. If you do risk mitigation after getting a physics BS you can turn out fine but you are going to need to get another degree whether it be a PhD in Physics, a masters in something else like medical physics or engineering. The simplest way to think of it is that a physics bachelors is like an engineering associates degree when you think about how far from employable you are when you get the degree.

Also nobody has said a "physics degree is useless" so there is no point in building that strawman.

 

[VoloD]

computer science, engineering, architecture, nursing, medicine, physiotherapy, law, accounting, statistics (to a lesser extent)

To be fair, the strength of physics is that it can be used for advanced studies in fields where the BS may be irrelevant upon completion of advanced programs. Law and Medicine is the most obvious example of this. And most architects are now having to get advanced degrees to stay competitive. I don't know much about physiotherapy, so else may need to comment on that one.

For those unfamiliar with my story ( which most common posters already are) I got a BS in Physics because I was struggling with my previous major. Fortunately, I managed to get into an MS in EE and am one year from graduating (might stay another to do research ??) . Personally, I think Physics majors typically can find some opportunity to do well.

I don't know how common my experience is, how many Physics majors end up getting Advanced degrees in Engineering , Computer science, or other applied fields and wind up making great careers out of them. Pure physics routes seem beneficial if you honestly want research opportunities ( unless you want $$ in which case Nuclear or Medical may be your calling).

I try to encourage people like the OP to think of Physics like Nano-systems, Biomedical Majors, or Pre-Med. They have technical backgrounds but mostly use them for Graduate or Professional School anyway.

 

[VoloD]

Exactly. If you do risk mitigation after getting a physics BS you can turn out fine but you are going to need to get another degree whether it be a PhD in Physics, a masters in something else like medical physics or engineering. The simplest way to think of it is that a physics bachelors is like an engineering associates degree when you think about how far from employable you are when you get the degree.

Also nobody has said a "physics degree is useless" so there is no point in building that strawman.

Your advice is generally accurate ModusPwnd, I will only add that it may be a factor of your institution as well. I chose a different institution when I went to Grad School for Engineering and I am relatively happier. It may be rare, but some times location or the reputation of your institution could be limiting your growth.