Hard water [Archive] - Physics Forums

Andre

Aug30-10, 04:43 PM

Hi wolram,

No recommandations (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1687503/pdf/brmedj00530-0009.pdf), it seems

It's an old study but:

In 1960 Schroeder showed that male deaths from cardiovascular diseases in 163 cities in the United States were less common where the concentrations of calcium and magnesium in drinking-water were high.1 2 Within a few days of receiving these results, Morris and his co-workers at the Medical Research Council Social Medicine Unit in London used data already in their hands to confirm that this negative correlation also existed in England and Wales,...cont'd

But I could imagine complications in other areas.

Evo

Aug30-10, 04:55 PM

I live in an area where the water supply has a very high amount of lime, what if any thing doe's this do to ones insides.Get your self one of those water filter you place on your countertop.

mugaliens

Aug30-10, 10:48 PM

Yeah, I dunno - fortifies your bones?

Tell you what - Google this and you'll find wildly conflicting stories of both the health "benefits" and "harms" of distilled water.

Take a walk on the evolutionary wild side, however, and you'll find that nearly all of us (the ones who lived to reproduce, anyway) simply drank the water that was in the wild.

Talk to me again after you have grandkids. :)

Evo

Aug30-10, 10:54 PM

Proton Soup

Aug31-10, 12:05 AM

Hi wolram,

No recommandations (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1687503/pdf/brmedj00530-0009.pdf), it seems

It's an old study but:

i think it's probably a function of the magnesium. hard water is often a great source of Mg.

But I could imagine complications in other areas.

not sure what you mean unless it's prostate complications in men from too much calcium.

Distilled water is known to be bad for exclusive human consumption. Filtered water is healthy.

i hope by filtered you mean activated charcoal. this will typically remove lead and organic contaminants while leaving the Ca and Mg. but you have to change the filter on a regular schedule.

airborne18

Aug31-10, 12:57 AM

I had this problem and refused to drink it. The fact that after two days it would create a green film in my bathtub convinced me that it could not be good for the internal pipes.

The real problem is that destroys your plumbing and water appliances. We lived in an old farmhouse that we rented, and the landlord would not put out the money to get rid of the copper pipes. It slowly ate them and leaks would pop up. And it destroyed the dishwasher and water heater. Even destroyed the water pump.

A water filer on your sink will not do it. You need to get a water softener on the whole system.

lisab

Aug31-10, 07:26 AM

The best way to deal with hard water is to simply thaw it before you use it.

Evo

Aug31-10, 07:41 AM

A water filer on your sink will not do it. You need to get a water softener on the whole system.
I believe he's renting, that's not an option.

wolram

Aug31-10, 08:27 AM

The best way to deal with hard water is to simply thaw it before you use it.

LOL, there has to be one i guess :tongue2:

Seems like there is a split of opinion, short time i will go with Evo, but my parents swear by an electrical gizmo that fits to the inlet pipe, its just a little box with two wires, one at either end, a wire that goes clockwise and the other wire goes counter clockwise around the pipe.

Gokul43201

Aug31-10, 10:58 AM

LOL, there has to be one i guess :tongue2:

Seems like there is a split of opinion, short time i will go with Evo, but my parents swear by an electrical gizmo that fits to the inlet pipe, its just a little box with two wires, one at either end, a wire that goes clockwise and the other wire goes counter clockwise around the pipe.Sounds like one of those magnet scams.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

When you buy a sink filter, make sure it's a multi-stage filtration unit, with an RO chamber (need this for the hardness) and a carbon filter. These usually cost in the ballpark of $100 (in the US) for a small counter-top unit.

Borek

Aug31-10, 11:35 AM

Sounds like one of those magnet scams.

Scams or not.

http://www.epjap.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/epjap:2002025&Itemid=129

I am not saying they are right, but that's not some random web page :biggrin:

Evo

Aug31-10, 12:35 PM

Scams or not.

http://www.epjap.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/epjap:2002025&Itemid=129

I am not saying they are right, but that's not some random web page :biggrin:Interesting find Borek. Now the issue would be finding a legitimate compnany that could wire such a device correctly.

Gokul43201

Aug31-10, 12:55 PM

Scams or not.

http://www.epjap.org/index.php?option=com_article&access=doi&doi=10.1051/epjap:2002025&Itemid=129

I am not saying they are right, but that's not some random web page :biggrin:That paper addresses the effectiveness of a magneto-hydrodynamic system on silicaceous scale formation in industrial heat exchanges, and does NOT evaluate magnetic softening of hard water. They only study the quality of the pipes, not the quality of the water. Heck, if your plumbing is cleaner, the water is probably dirtier! For industrial applications like boilers and heat exchangers, the important issue is scale formation, not water quality.

Clearly, water softening requires a chemical reaction to exchange the bad Group II cations with less bad ones, and there is no obvious mechanism for that in a magnetic water cleaner.

Borek

Aug31-10, 01:27 PM

That paper addresses the effectiveness of a magneto-hydrodynamic system on silicaceous scale formation in industrial heat exchanges, and does NOT evaluate magnetic softening of hard water.

Sure. I see I wasn't clear. I never stated magnets can soften the water, all I wanted to point out was that not every magnet used on water pipe must be a scam :smile:

physics girl phd

Aug31-10, 02:19 PM

nismaratwork

Aug31-10, 02:34 PM

Activated charcoal filters (britta, pur, etc...) are more than sufficient for mineral filtration, as has already been stated.

Proton Soup

Aug31-10, 02:50 PM

Bladder stones.

I lived in an area with calcium/lime in the water, and one of my roommates at the time (she was only 19) got bladder stones as a result of drinking a lot of the tap water. If you eat more citrus or take in more vitamin C, it might help to acidify your system. (This and drinking less water, was recommended.)

incorrect. eat meat for metabolic acidity. veggies and fruit for alkalinity. but i don't think you'll get much effect on stones, either way.

Activated charcoal filters (britta, pur, etc...) are more than sufficient for mineral filtration, as has already been stated.

other than some heavy metals like lead, this is incorrect. charcoal will leave most of the hardness intact. if you want to remove the hardness, then use ion exchange resins, or reverse osmosis. but remember that R.O. is nearly as devoid of ions as distilled. some multistage units with resin+R.O. maybe more so.

nucleargirl

Aug31-10, 02:50 PM

Activated charcoal filters (britta, pur, etc...) are more than sufficient for mineral filtration, as has already been stated.

yeah we have hard water here and I use a brita filter... but it gives off bits and I end up drinking these... might not be very good either...
but after filtering you get less brown 'film' on top of your tea.. if anyone gets that...

nismaratwork

Aug31-10, 02:55 PM

yeah we have hard water here and I use a brita filter... but it gives off bits and I end up drinking these... might not be very good either...
but after filtering you get less brown 'film' on top of your tea.. if anyone gets that...

That's definitely no fun at all. If you soak the filter for about 15 minutes in tap water, drain it, and re-soak, you may find that you don't get charcoal specks. As an aside, I used a Pur for a long time and never got any....

On the bright side, activated charcoal isn't going to hurt you.

Evo

Aug31-10, 03:00 PM

other than some heavy metals like lead, this is incorrect. charcoal will leave most of the hardness intact. if you want to remove the hardness, then use ion exchange resins, or reverse osmosis. but remember that R.O. is nearly as devoid of ions as distilled. some multistage units with resin+R.O. maybe more so.Brita does filter lime with ion exchange resin.

Step 2: Ion Exchange Filtration:
The ion exchange resin reduces limescale (carbonate hardness) and certain heavy metals (like lead and copper).

http://www.brita.net/uk/brita_informations.html?&L=1

wolram

Aug31-10, 03:09 PM

I am wondering now if hard water is the cause of my socks coming out crispy after washing, even though i use a water softening powder.

airborne18

Aug31-10, 03:40 PM

I am wondering now if hard water is the cause of my socks coming out crispy after washing, even though i use a water softening powder.

Lol. The issue we had was that it caused a color shift in the whites. Even with detergents designed for this it only mildly helped.

With the wife it was her hair, it damaged her hair and she had to buy special hair products.

If you are renting they sell special softeners that you can put inline, and special shower heads.

But the stuff gets expensive. We had a brita and we used to go through filters fairly often, but it did help. Our lime problem was bad.

I did notice one thing. You don't hear doctors and healthfood stores pushing Lime dietary supplements, so I don't think it is a good thing.

Proton Soup

Aug31-10, 04:24 PM

Brita does filter lime with ion exchange resin.

http://www.brita.net/uk/brita_informations.html?&L=1

i'm sure it does a much better job at removing lead, too. not sure the copper that they mention is ever a hazard, tho.

Proton Soup

Aug31-10, 04:26 PM

I did notice one thing. You don't hear doctors and healthfood stores pushing Lime dietary supplements, so I don't think it is a good thing.

not sure what you mean exactly by "lime", but calcium supplements and antacids tend to be calcium carbonate, sometimes magnesium hydroxide(antacid).

Borek

Aug31-10, 04:35 PM

On the very general level resin removes metal ions - like calcium, magnesium, heavy metals - while activated charcoal removes large organic molecules.

Copper is a heavy metal and such is a hazard, but from what I remember limits for copper are much higher than those for lead.

Proton Soup

Aug31-10, 04:52 PM

US RDA for copper is 900 micrograms/day for adults. upper limit is 10 mg/day.

taking too much ionic copper at one time will make you sick as a dog, tho. i found this out the hard way. :yuck:

mugaliens

Aug31-10, 05:46 PM

US RDA for copper is 900 micrograms/day for adults. upper limit is 10 mg/day.

taking too much ionic copper at one time will make you sick as a dog, tho. i found this out the hard way. :yuck:

You mean you ingested it intentionally? Copper is toxic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity)! It's a bacteriostat, an algicide, and is used in pressure-treated wood as a preservative to keep it from rotting.

The fix is ovalbumin, the main protein found in egg whites, so have an omelette!

Proton Soup

Aug31-10, 06:28 PM

You mean you ingested it intentionally? Copper is toxic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper_toxicity)! It's a bacteriostat, an algicide, and is used in pressure-treated wood as a preservative to keep it from rotting.

The fix is ovalbumin, the main protein found in egg whites, so have an omelette!

yeah, i can't remember why i tried it. and i'm not sure why anyone would offer it in an organic salt form, since the primary result seems to be puking.

but still, i think you are being a bit dramatic. copper is a necessary nutrient (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper#Biological_role), like zinc. and zinc also is bacteriostatic. and zinc also will make you puke if you take too much at once (this is very easy to do with over-the-counter zinc gluconate).

so, there's no need to try and put it in the same category as lead and mercury. avoiding toxic amounts is prudent. avoiding it entirely is not.