Wormholes for space travel?

[Maximilan]

Hello,

Is it true that the event horizon will destroy anyone who was able to enter a wormhole before exiting to another location? And is it also true that if fed the correct exotic matter, a wormhole could be opened large enough to travel through? If so, could a wormhole exist in close enough proximity to a blackhole that it could possibly be fed the exotic matter it needs to open up enough to pass through?

Thanks

[kcajrenreb]

To the first question, I don't think anyone knows, certainly I don't. If a worhmole is something that has an event horizon like you have stated, though, than yeah, it would probably destroy something passing through.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'exotic matter', could you please explain? Also, if this 'exotic matter' even existed, why would you need to be close to a black hole to 'feed' it to a wormhole? Either I don't know anything about what you're talking about, or what you're talking about makes no sense. Also, keep in mind worhmoles are purely theoretical, and we do not know their exact properties.

[Drakkith]

There is no evidence that wormholes, nor exotic matter, exist at all. So we can't really say what they will do or not do.

[Maximilan]

I was thinking that since a blackhole is sitting there constantly feeding, there could be a chance that it could eventually collect matter that could open up the theoretical event horizon enough to travel through if a wormhole truly existed and was close enough?

[Maximilan]

sorry I should have stated earlier I'm not a scientist, I'm a would be fiction writer - could this be a workable idea in Sci-Fi?

[Drakkith]

Again, wormholes have never been observed, so we can't say much on them. I'm not an expert on black holes, so if there is some theoretical math that describes them I don't know it.

[Drakkith]

sorry I should have stated earlier I'm not a scientist, I'm a would be fiction writer - could this be a workable idea in Sci-Fi?

It's sci-fi, so you can effectively do whatever you want depending on how "out there" you want the science to be.

[Ryan_m_b]

I was thinking that since a blackhole is sitting there constantly feeding, there could be a chance that it could eventually collect matter that could open up the theoretical event horizon enough to travel through if a wormhole truly existed and was close enough?

Black holes cannot "open up". Once an event horizon has formed that is it until the whole thing is evaporated thanks to Hawking radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation), adding more mass just grows the black hole.

To make wormholes would require exotic (impossible) matter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_mass). Even if gaining significant amounts of this was possible once you have it without some sort of of CPC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_protection_conjecture) you would be able to create time machines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_ring).

[kcajrenreb]

sorry I should have stated earlier I'm not a scientist, I'm a would be fiction writer - could this be a workable idea in Sci-Fi?

If you want my opinion, than sure! Go for it! Don't get too caught up with scientific accuracy in your book or whatever you're writing. Unless your target readers are physicists, of course...

[Maximilan]

"Black holes cannot "open up". Once an event horizon has formed that is it until the whole thing is evaporated thanks to Hawking radiation, adding more mass just grows the black hole."

I was referring to the Black Hole providing the 'exotic matter' for the wormhole to maintain open its theoretical event horizon. But thank you for the CPC link :) very informative. I guess my next question would be what is the nearest blackhole that we know of other than the center of the Milkyway because that's like 26 trillion miles away? :)

[phinds]

Hello,

Is it true that the event horizon will destroy anyone who was able to enter a wormhole before exiting to another location? And is it also true that if fed the correct exotic matter, a wormhole could be opened large enough to travel through? If so, could a wormhole exist in close enough proximity to a blackhole that it could possibly be fed the exotic matter it needs to open up enough to pass through?

Thanks

You have a very fundamental misconception here about black holes. The event horizon of a BH has NOTHING to do with destroying things. Spaghettification, the tidal-force-induced destruction of complex objects that are captured by a BH can happen inside the EH or outside the EH but in any case has nothing to do with the EH

[Maximilan]

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/bhwi_gif.html

[Drakkith]

http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/bhwi_gif.html

What about it? Linking an animation with no description and nothing in your post isn't going to help anyone.

[Ryan_m_b]

I was referring to the Black Hole providing the 'exotic matter' for the wormhole to maintain open its theoretical event horizon. But thank you for the CPC link :) very informative. I guess my next question would be what is the nearest blackhole that we know of other than the center of the Milkyway because that's like 26 trillion miles away? :)

I've never heard of a black hole being able to produce exotic matter, where did you here this?

On the other hand this is SF so as long as you make sure the ramifications of your plot devises is well thought out anything goes. The nearest black hole is ~1500 light years if I remember correctly. Alternatively you could postulate that the characters in your setting have made a device such as a particle accelerator that is so powerful it can create micro-black holes that can be fed to larger sizes.

[Maximilan]

Thank you all for responding.

RE: ryan_m_b,
Not the BH producing exotic matter, but collecting it. My question is if a wormhole was near a BH, the possibility of the WH eventually becoming stable enough to pass through (not to collapse on the traveller who enters it); because of the BH pulling all matter to itself PAST the location of the wormhole (in effect "feeding" the WH like a mother to an infant).

I came across this website: http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html that suggested the conditions needed for a wormhole to be stable.

I can't help but think of whirlpools and eddies when thinking of BHs and WHs. I was thinking this morning about the shape of the Milkyway, the spirals of solar systems in giant curves, apparently circling the center like an enormous water drain. With this concept (comparing the spiral motion of the Milkyway to a whirlpool, and wormholes as eddy currents) - would travel to the center of the Milkway become faster as you approach the center? I know it takes a little imagination, but I'm thinking of laws of nature being repeatable despite the scale. Also, could the center of a BH be calm like the eye of a tornado?
[Thank you for your suggestion about a particle accelerator, and for explaining this to me. I was orinally thinking about using solar waves from the sun for travel, and also mining Helium 3 for primary fuel from moons along the way].

[Ryan_m_b]

Thank you all for responding.

RE: ryan_m_b,

For future reference you can just click the "quote" button on somebodies post to reply to them.
Not the BH producing exotic matter, but collecting it. My question is if a wormhole was near a BH, the possibility of the WH eventually becoming stable enough to pass through (not to collapse on the traveller who enters it); because of the BH pulling all matter to itself PAST the location of the wormhole (in effect "feeding" the WH like a mother to an infant).

Collecting exotic matter from where?
I came across this website: http://casa.colorado.edu/~ajsh/schww.html that suggested the conditions needed for a wormhole to be stable.

Ok this website is talking about Schwarzschild wormholes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole#Schwarzschild_wormholes). This theoretical type of wormhole would consist of a black hole connected to a white hole in another universe (IIRC stability issues make this impossible IRL). You would not be able to traverse this wormhole though! Considering you are writing science fiction I imagine you want traversable wormholes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormhole#Traversable_wormholes) which are very different.
I can't help but think of whirlpools and eddies when thinking of BHs and WHs. I was thinking this morning about the shape of the Milkyway, the spirals of solar systems in giant curves, apparently circling the center like an enormous water drain. With this concept (comparing the spiral motion of the Milkyway to a whirlpool, and wormholes as eddy currents) - would travel to the center of the Milkway become faster as you approach the center? I know it takes a little imagination, but I'm thinking of laws of nature being repeatable despite the scale. Also, could the center of a BH be calm like the eye of a tornado?
[Thank you for your suggestion about a particle accelerator, and for explaining this to me. I was orinally thinking about using solar waves from the sun for travel, and also mining Helium 3 for primary fuel from moons along the way].

I don't mean this in an insulting way but be very, very careful with analogies to complex science. In my experience they give an over inflated sense of understanding and make way for fallacious predictions and extrapolations. The spiral motion of the milky way is due to gravity under the same principles that keep the Earth in orbit.

I'd advise you to get rid of the notion of whirlpools and tornados, in reality black holes are nothing of the sort. Contemporary physics does not have a complete understanding of what goes on beyond an event horizon (the current prediction of a gravitational singularity is not regarded to be accurate) however it would be anything but calm! Before long you would be dead from spaghettification and the centre of a black hole is likely to be some ridiculously dense and bizzare phenomenon.

[yenchin]

There are two types of wormholes. One is supposedly the link between black hole and hypothetical white hole. But when people talk about using wormhole to travel, they are referring to "traversable wormhole" in which you modify spacetime topology. There is no black hole involved and you don't have event horizon. In fact for such a wormhole (which also requires negative energy), you *don't want* it to form event horizon. For schwarzschild spacetime this can be done by "surgically" modify the spacetime [http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.0927v1]. You don't want to attempt to cross the Einstein-Rosen bridge of the original Schwarzschild spacetime (which is by the way not realistic for any black hole formed by collapsing star), if you do so you will die, as surely as falling into a black hole.

A wormhole mouth is a sphere which if you look through would give you a glimpse on the "other side" where the other mouth is, though the view might be distorted [http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.3784].

And note that for a non-rotating black hole, the "center" is in time (the future), not in space. That is, if you fall through the event horizon, you don't see a singularity in front of you in which you have no choice but to go toward and hit it. It occurs in your future, and you only know it when you hit in (of course you would likely to be dead way before that due to tidal effect). Since curvature blows up at the singularity it is very likely that gravitational distortion is very high near and at the singularity, it is not like the eye of a storm.

[Ryan_m_b]

Yenchin your links are broken because you've hyperlinked the brackets. It should be
Traversable wormholes from surgically modified Schwarzschild spacetimes
http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.0927
Observing other universe through ringholes and Klein-bottle holes
http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.3784

[yenchin]

Yenchin your links are broken because you've hyperlinked the brackets. It should be
Traversable wormholes from surgically modified Schwarzschild spacetimes
http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.0927
Observing other universe through ringholes and Klein-bottle holes
http://arxiv.org/abs/1102.3784

Opps. Thanks. Didn't realize that :-)

[Ryan_m_b]

Opps. Thanks. Didn't realize that :-)

No problem :wink:

[yenchin]

To the OP, I think you don't have to be too precise in the physics, it is after all a fiction story you want. Here (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/07/31/good-and-bad-science-in-science-fiction/) is something you should read (and watch the video as well) about writing a good science fiction. You could "develop consistent rules for the fictional worlds and extrapolating the consequences of those worlds, even if those rules are not the rules of our real universe".

[Ryan_m_b]

To the OP, I think you don't have to be too precise in the physics, it is after all a fiction story you want. Here (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/cosmicvariance/2010/07/31/good-and-bad-science-in-science-fiction/) is something you should read (and watch the video as well) about writing a good science fiction. You could "develop consistent rules for the fictional worlds and extrapolating the consequences of those worlds, even if those rules are not the rules of our real universe".

Very good advice. In my opinion there are two things to consider when worldbuilding science/technology for a science fiction story;

1) Is it believable?
- This stipulation is the weakest of the two, plenty of good SF has been written with unbelievable or just plain wrong science (e.g. Philip. K. Dick wrote of evolution being under control of a gland that could be stimulated to super-evolve someone). Having said that it is always best to remember the target audience and aim to reduce the extent to which they have to suspend their disbelief.

2) Is it consistent?
- The best science fiction takes a technology and fully explores how that technology would affect the setting which it is in. Average/bad science fiction just bolts the technology onto the setting without changing anything. For example; bad science fiction might propose a world wherein everyone owns a GPS device from birth but treat society the same as it is now. Good science fiction would explore odd phenomena such as generations of people who now don't understand or comprehend (in anything but a hypothetical/academic sense) what it means to be lost, something that has been an ordinary part of human existence since the before the beginning of our species.

[jambaugh]

Is it true that the event horizon will destroy anyone who was able to enter a wormhole before exiting to another location? ...


Just a note of clarification. In general event horizons are not the danger (as such). You are passing across event horizons continuously when you pass from the past into the future, or pass across the future light-cones of past events. Black holes are unique in that the form "stationary" EH's as seen from external observers. For an infalling observer the BH's event horizon is just like any other imaginary surface dividing local space-time into earlier and later events.

It is the singularities and the extremes near them which are a danger (specifically tidal forces which will rip you appart and the reduction of spatial dimensions to sizes smaller than you entity so that you are squeezed against yourself and crushed).

And as has been commented the trouble with wormholes is a.) creating/finding them, and b.) keeping them from collapsing i.e. forming a singularity.

[Maximilan]

Awesome advice guys thank you.