Have we changed the time limit for edits again?

[Fredrik]

I can't edit the posts I made 4-4.5 hours ago. No, I don't want to edit them. I'm just wondering why I don't see an edit button.

Edit: At least I can still edit this one. :smile:

[micromass]

I can't edit the posts I made 4-4.5 hours ago. No, I don't want to edit them. I'm just wondering why I don't see an edit button.

Edit: At least I can still edit this one. :smile:

Yes. Greg changed the edit time to 2 hours. This is in order to prevent cheaters from asking a homework question and then deleting all traces.

[Fredrik]

Uhh...I really don't like this. I thought the previous 11 hours and 40 minutes was already close to the minimum time I'd be OK with. I'm all for creating problems for cheaters, but it will also create problems for people like you and me almost every day. OK, not you anymore, now that you have superpowers, but I expect to be annoyed by this almost every day.

But thank you for answering.

[Ryan_m_b]

Uhh...I really don't like this. I thought the previous 11 hours and 40 minutes was already close to the minimum time I'd be OK with. I'm all for creating problems for cheaters, but it will also create problems for people like you and me almost every day. OK, not you anymore, now that you have superpowers, but I expect to be annoyed by this almost every day.

But thank you for answering.
This has been taken into account but we don't think it will be a major inconvenience for regular users. If it proves to be (e.g. if it becomes common for people have to repost with corrections) we can think through it again.

[Dembadon]

... but we don't think it will be a major inconvenience for regular users. ...

I'm a little worried about this as well. But I'm an OCD user, not regular.

[Evo]

Uhh...I really don't like this. I thought the previous 11 hours and 40 minutes was already close to the minimum time I'd be OK with. I'm all for creating problems for cheaters, but it will also create problems for people like you and me almost every day. OK, not you anymore, now that you have superpowers, but I expect to be annoyed by this almost every day.

But thank you for answering.Fredrik, if you have edits to make, I'll be happy to do them for you. You still have two hours after making your post to proof read and make corrections. Just send me a pm about what your special need is that requires you to make these late edits and I'm sure we can work something out.

[Fredrik]

Thank you for the offer Evo. I don't need to edit any of my posts from today, but I might as well take this opportunity to ask you to change a 0 to a 1 in this post (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2588832), which I still link to once in a while. There are two indented lines that end with 'send the reply "0"'. The 0 that ends the second line should be a 1.

I think the new time limit won't be much of a problem for users who just ask questions, but it will be more of a problem for those of us who like to answer questions. Mainly because we don't like to give incorrect answers, or explanations that are hard to follow.

I was a bit skeptical when the time was lowered to 700 minutes as well, but that's at least enough time to fix late night mistakes in the morning (something I do at least a few times a week), and morning mistakes in the afternoon. Now if I leave the computer to do something else for a while, when I come back, it will probably be too late.

When I expressed my concern back then, several mentors offered to help with edits, as you are doing now, and they told me that if I want to edit something after the time is up, all I have to do is to use the report button to ask a mentor for assistance. I don't believe that really works. I'm not embarrassed to do that 3-4 times a year, but I think you guys would get tired of me fast if I started doing it every day. :smile:

Anyway, I don't really know how much of a problem this is going to be. The 700 minute limit caused a lot less problems than I thought it would, so maybe this will too.

[Evo]

Fixed.

[Fredrik]

Thank you.

[Greg Bernhardt]

Keep giving us feedback Fredrik, we can keep tweaking it to find the sweet spot.

[micromass]

Fredrik, I also volunteer to make any edits you want me to make. Just pm or report the thread, and I'll be happy to edit posts. The last we want is to inconvenience you.

[micromass]

Edit time is back to normal.

Thanks for your feedback, Fredrik!!

[Fredrik]

Thanks for the kind offers to help out with edits. I'm glad it was changed back though. :smile:

[DaleSpam]

I can understand the need to have a short edit time for revisions. But even after the revision time it would be nice to have a feature where you could indicate that you had made a mistake. When I make a mistake that is corrected a day or two later in the conversation I am always concerned that the original mistaken post will be taken out of context. For me a short time window to change existing text would be OK, but to be able to add a comment much later would be helpful.

[eumyang]

Edit time is back to normal.

Thanks for your feedback, Fredrik!!
Not for me. In fact, immediately after I made a post in another thread, I noticed that there was no "Edit" button at all. :confused:

EDIT: Very strange. The "Edit" button appears on this thread, but not on this thread (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=557237) (for me).

[Greg Bernhardt]

Not for me. In fact, immediately after I made a post in another thread, I noticed that there was no "Edit" button at all. :confused:

Are you in the homework forums?

[Ryan_m_b]

Not for me. In fact, immediately after I made a post in another thread, I noticed that there was no "Edit" button at all. :confused:
We're trying out settings that disable editing in the Homework forums.

[eumyang]

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

[Evo]

My suggestions, take a moment and proof read before you submit. I usually do a "preview post" because I find it easier to see errors in forum view than in editor view.

[Fredrik]

For my longer post, the standard is more like 15-20 previews and 2-5 edits. :smile:

However, I don't mind having the edit feature disabled in the homework forum. I seldom see the need to write really long posts there. Since we're providing hints rather than complete solutions, posts tend to get a lot shorter. For the same reason, I rarely have a reason to link to the same post in the homework forum many times, so it doesn't really matter if a post could use some improvements.

[Evo]

For my longer post, the standard is more like 15-20 previews and 2-5 edits. :smile:

However, I don't mind having the edit feature disabled in the homework forum. I seldom see the need to write really long posts there. Since we're providing hints rather than complete solutions, posts tend to get a lot shorter. For the same reason, I rarely have a reason to link to the same post in the homework forum many times, so it doesn't really matter if a post could use some improvements.Can you see the edit button on your posts in Homework?

[berkeman]

I can understand the need to have a short edit time for revisions. But even after the revision time it would be nice to have a feature where you could indicate that you had made a mistake. When I make a mistake that is corrected a day or two later in the conversation I am always concerned that the original mistaken post will be taken out of context. For me a short time window to change existing text would be OK, but to be able to add a comment much later would be helpful.

There's always the Report button. Just ask a Mentor to make the correction. You could also ask that a strike-through be used to indicate the part that has been changed, if you like.

[epenguin]

My suggestions, take a moment and proof read before you submit. I usually do a "preview post" because I find it easier to see errors in forum view than in editor view.

I don't know if it's only me or I am doing something wrong but this has become a pain since whoever loused up the site :tongue2: a few days ago!

It throws me out of the site continually; there is a button called 'remember me' but it doesn't always remember very well. To write a post with chemical or math formulae in particular means extensive previewing, more than once I have lost careful work of thinking, writing and tedious tex after being thrown out and was not best pleased thereat. :grumpy:

I don't know what problem the changes were invented to solve but if it was worse than the one I now have it was bad. :grumpy:

[vela]

We're trying out settings that disable editing in the Homework forums.
I really don't like that. Even after proofreading and previewing, I frequently end up wanting to edit a post to add something, to fix an error I didn't catch, or to simply delete it because someone else (usually Mark44) posted the exact same info while I was writing my post. I'd prefer a short window, perhaps 10 minutes or so, where we can fix or delete posts in the homework forums. Is this possible or is the time a site-wide setting?

[jackmell]

I just posted in the homework forum and can't edit a post. Probably said too much, not even sure it's correct, and may have stepped on toes. Need to change it. I use the edit button all the time and late too.

[Greg Bernhardt]

I really don't like that. Even after proofreading and previewing, I frequently end up wanting to edit a post to add something, to fix an error I didn't catch, or to simply delete it because someone else (usually Mark44) posted the exact same info while I was writing my post. I'd prefer a short window, perhaps 10 minutes or so, where we can fix or delete posts in the homework forums. Is this possible or is the time a site-wide setting?

It is not possible.

HH/SA should be able to edit. Try again and let me know.

[dextercioby]

Vela, I too think a short window for 10-15 minutes would be the optimal solution. I mean, c'mon, new, unnecessary posts or PMs, dashed lines on text...

EDIT: I can edit this post :biggrin: Yes, Greg, the button is there AGAIN.

[Greg Bernhardt]

EDIT: I can edit this post :biggrin: Yes, Greg, the button is there AGAIN.

Only the homework forums should be affected. Outside the homework forums the 700 minute window is back open.

[vela]

It is not possible.

HH/SA should be able to edit. Try again and let me know.
Yup, the edit button is back for me in the HH forum. Thanks!

[Evo]

I don't know if it's only me or I am doing something wrong but this has become a pain since whoever loused up the site :tongue2: a few days ago!

It throws me out of the site continually; there is a button called 'remember me' but it doesn't always remember very well. To write a post with chemical or math formulae in particular means extensive previewing, more than once I have lost careful work of thinking, writing and tedious tex after being thrown out and was not best pleased thereat. :grumpy:

I don't know what problem the changes were invented to solve but if it was worse than the one I now have it was bad. :grumpy:It was a forum upgrade that had to be done. You shouldn't still be having problems, did you log off, clear your cookies and restart? That apparently fixed the problem for the users whose browsers didn't automatically take the upgrade.

Here's a {{{hug}}} hoping it fixes for you.

[Evo]

If we could get everyone that helps in the homework forums to quote the student's posts when they reply, instead of just replying, we wouldn't have a problem.

[1MileCrash]

Also just had to repost a correction immediately after posting in HW.

That should be the LAST forum to have this limitation. When showing work, we usually need to use a lot of math markup. It's only natural that we screw up on it from time to time/every time.

[Evo]

Also just had to repost a correction immediately after posting in HW.

That should be the LAST forum to have this limitation. When showing work, we usually need to use a lot of math markup. It's only natural that we screw up on it from time to time/every time.Unfortunately students are getting help then deleting their posts, and it's becoming more frequent.

If we can get the helpers to quote the OP, we wouldn't have this problem.

I've posted requests for people to please hit the quote button when they reply, but they don't. Do you have any ideas on how we can get people to start using the quote button in homework help? Perhaps this will get peoples attention. Hitting quote is no harder than hitting reply. It is preferable that quote is used anyway.

[Dembadon]

...

Do you have any ideas on how we can get people to start using the quote button in homework help?

Have the first reply in the thread automatically quote the OP no matter what the helper has chosen to do. Is there a way to make the "New Reply" button check to see if it's the first response in a thread?

[1MileCrash]

What about an "edit log" that a mod could use to revert it to a previous edit?

I'm sure such mods for vbulletin exist.

You could force someone to use the quote button by hiding the reply button in the HW board (if statement in template) but you couldn't stop anyone from just removing the quoted post in the text box.

[Greg Bernhardt]

You could force someone to use the quote button by hiding the reply button in the HW board (if statement in template) but you couldn't stop anyone from just removing the quoted post in the text box.

Or we could simply direct the first reply to the quote function. Interesting idea. I may investigate that.

[berkeman]

Or we could simply direct the first reply to the quote function. Interesting idea. I may investigate that.

That would be a great solution, if it could be done. Thanks Greg.

We also have the issue of posters using images hosted on other servers as part of their OP, and then taking them down after the problem is solved. It would be good if we could prevent this somehow within the capabilities of the vBulletin software.

[Evo]

Or remove the "new reply" button so the only option is quote?

We also have the issue of posters using images hosted on other servers as part of their OP, and then taking them down after the problem is solved. It would be good if we could prevent this somehow within the capabilities of the vBulletin software.Oh, good one Berke!

[Dembadon]

Someone can still use the "quick reply" box at the bottom to circumvent any restrictions placed on the buttons. Is there a way to remove the quick reply box from the homework section?

[1MileCrash]

It could be similarly hidden.

[vela]

You could probably tweak the forum code to hide the edit button for the first post using CSS.

[1MileCrash]

You could probably tweak the forum code to hide the edit button for the first post using CSS.

CSS can't differentiate between posts nor can it differentiate between boards (it's no dynamic language), you'd have to count the number of times the foreach was run in the php and only do that if the board was homework which would require another if statement.

I don't know much about vBulletin, but I was on the SMF development team and they are both MYSQL/PHP based bulletin boards and inherently similar. I'm sure all posts use the exact same coding under one foreach block - meaning the only way to differentiate them is to run a "counter" (a script that increments some value by 1 each time foreach is run) and then within the foreach, an if statement confirming that the value of that number is 1 - that is the first post.)

[Fredrik]

Can you see the edit button on your posts in Homework?
I see you already got a few replies from others, so you probably don't need my input anymore, but yes, I see an edit button next to the post I just made in the homework forum.

[jackmell]

. . . great. Now I have a flat-out genuine, bonifide error in a homework thread I can't correct:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=557305

can someone here with creds change that myxdide integrand so that the variables are in t and not y?

[Ryan_m_b]

. . . great. Now I have a flat-out genuine, bonifide error in a homework thread I can't correct:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=557305

can someone here with creds change that myxdide integrand so that the variables are in t and not y?
Sure but...what exactly do you want changed :redface: ?

[micromass]

. . . great. Now I have a flat-out genuine, bonifide error in a homework thread I can't correct:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=557305

can someone here with creds change that myxdide integrand so that the variables are in t and not y?

Done

[Ryan_m_b]

Done
Ah I see, changing the Y to a T. Could have said that...

[jackmell]

Alright. Thanks.

Edit:

Wait, I'm sorry but that's still not quite right. Ok, yesterday when I'm reading this thread I wanted to say, "look, I need edit privs cus' I often change my post so that it's easier to read, more clear, and adequately presented so that the reader can understand it." But then I saw you guys put the edit privs back. Well, in the thread above, I think the OP is going to get my y confussed with his y when really my y is just a general expression so I should have more clearly stated that by writing as the first sentence,

"Consider the general expression"

See, that's much more clearer and won't confuse him with what y's I'm talking about.

But that's ok. Don't want to bother you guys again to fix my post. Just leave it. I'm just saying, having edit privs would allow me to present something that is more successful in achiving the goal of presenting a difficult subject in a manner the reader adequately understands. And worst, sometimes they won't tell you they don't understand it neither. They're often too embarrassed to admit they're not getting it.

[LCKurtz]

Here's a {{{hug}}} hoping it fixes for you.

Hey!! Was that a private hug instead of a group hug??? I didn't feel a thing...

[Evo]

Hey!! Was that a private hug instead of a group hug??? I didn't feel a thing...{{{{hugs}}}} LCKurtz. :smile:

[Ivan92]

So I don't help much in homework [either because the questions have all ready been answered, or just plain don't know how to answer it (Yes, PF Homework Help Sections make me feel very stupid lol)]. However when I do find myself posting in the Homework Help, I constantly edit my answers probably for the same reasons as other people do (either make a mistake or just want to add more info to make what I said clearer). I did read what Evo said about the Quote button, which I will keep in mind next time I answer a question in that subforum. I have read most of the discussion here and I would like to propose an idea. Sorry if I have skipped it but from the looks of it, it has not been brought up. What if we take out the option of original posters unable to delete the threads, but still leave the edit button? Then again, they would be able to delete what they wrote down (I don't see why they should though). Just a thought. I don't like quoting much unless there is a mistake in a line somewhere.

[Ryan_m_b]

What if we take out the option of original posters unable to delete the threads, but still leave the edit button?
That is the problem. OPs delete the question by editing everything out of it. Unfortunately we can't just remove the edit function for HH OPs.

[QuarkCharmer]

Am I the only one who doesn't quite see how the ability to delete your post benefits cheaters in the homework section?

[micromass]

Am I the only one who doesn't quite see how the ability to delete your post benefits cheaters in the homework section?

Sometimes professors search for their homework exams on the internet. If they see a thread with their question on, then they know that it is one of their students who have cheated. But if the students delete their posts, then the professor can't find them and don't know whether they cheated. This happens more frequently than you think!

[LCKurtz]

{{{{hugs}}}} LCKurtz. :smile:

Ahhh. That's as good as a simulated hug gets. :!!)

[jackmell]

. . . got another scenario: So I post in the homework section. Hit the submit button but then I notice a bonifide homework helper just posted a helpful hint right before me. So as a curtesy, I go back. I'm lookin', I'm lookin', lookin' and don't find the delete key anymore but then I remember, hey, I can't edit, I can't delete neither. So now this homeworke helper thinks, "this smart-ellic Jack, he's just sayin' what I just said."

Awkward situation.

[micromass]

. . . got another scenario: So I post in the homework section. Hit the submit button but then I notice a bonifide homework helper just posted a helpful hint right before me. So as a curtesy, I go back. I'm lookin', I'm lookin', lookin' and don't find the delete key anymore but then I remember, hey, I can't edit, I can't delete neither. So now this homeworke helper thinks, "this smart-ellic Jack, he's just sayin' what I just said."

Awkward situation.

That happens quite a lot. Nobody will think that you copied the answer of the HH. It's just a coincidence.

[vela]

It does seem to me that this problem should be fixed by modifying the software rather than forcing the forum users to accommodate a current limitation in the software. It's not exactly brain surgery to tweak the forum code to disable the edit button on the first post.

[jackmell]

. . . great. Now I just made a mistake with a little 8-grade quadratic formula, right below Hall to make matters worst. No, no. Don't go fixin' it. I don't want anybody meeting my "special needs" in here. Just leave it and let Hall give me a schoolin' that's all.

[fluidistic]

1 question:
When someone who posted and edit/delete his post right after getting the answer... Can admins set the original post back up as it was originally posted? I know in another forum admins can do that. If this is so in this forum too, why not put 1 day long as time limit to edit a post?

[Evo]

1 question:
When someone who posted and edit/delete his post right after getting the answer... Can admins set the original post back up as it was originally posted? I know in another forum admins can do that. If this is so in this forum too, why not put 1 day long as time limit to edit a post?The limit was 700 minutes. Homework helpers are too good. Maybe we put all new homework posts into moderation for 9 hours. That will also solve the problem of students saying I need an answer in 1 hour!!! :tongue2:

[AlephZero]

Sometimes professors search for their homework exams on the internet. If they see a thread with their question on, then they know that it is one of their students who have cheated.

A different solution to that issue: automatically copy the OP's post to another thread which can't be edited or posted to by anybody, but can be searched.

You would only need say one "cumulative" thread per day, not a separate duplicate thread for every HW question.

[Greg Bernhardt]

All first replies in the homework forums now quote the OP. Edit permissions have been restored to regular members.

[Evo]

All first replies in the homework forums now quote the OP. Edit permissions have been restored to regular members.Fantastic!! Thank you so much Greg!! And thanks to everyone for the suggestions!

[Fredrik]

All first replies in the homework forums now quote the OP. Edit permissions have been restored to regular members.
Hm, will this really work? I suppose you can make sure that all the SAs and HHs will know that they should quote the post in its entirety, but a lot of people will probably just think "where the bleep is the reply button? I guess I'll just use this quick reply box." And even if they use the quote button, they may have been told in other places that you should always delete everything between the quote tags except the specific statement or question they're replying to.

[vela]

Yeah, I just noticed I usually start with the quick-reply box.

[jackmell]

Ok. Thanks. I mean just one very short post I made this morning I edited five times to get as best I could to be as understandable as possible. You just don't notice how it reads until you see it a few times and go over it and think about it a while then notice you could change things to make it more easily understood by your intended audience.

[micromass]

All first replies in the homework forums now quote the OP. Edit permissions have been restored to regular members.

Wonderful Greg!!!!

[jtbell]

All first replies in the homework forums now quote the OP.

I'm not seeing this on threads that were started this morning. :confused:

[Evo]

All first replies in the homework forums now quote the OP. Edit permissions have been restored to regular members.It's not working Greg. See example from this morning.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=558146

[Greg Bernhardt]

It's not working Greg. See example from this morning.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=558146

It's working, you can test yourself. Members must be manually deleting the quote.

[Evo]

It's working, you can test yourself. Members must be manually deleting the quote.Nope not working

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=558220

I used the quick reply option that most HHs use.

And if a member can delete the autoquote, then it doesn't help.

But I am not finding any autoquote. Anyone else finding an auto quote when you make a first reply?

[Greg Bernhardt]

Nope not working

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=558220

I used the quick reply option that most HHs use.

And if a member can delete the autoquote, then it doesn't help.

But I am not finding any autoquote. Anyone else finding an auto quote when you make a first reply?

It works if you click the new reply button and it simply fills in the message box with the quote.

[Evo]

It works if you click the new reply button and it simply fills in the message box with the quote.Can we get rid of the "quick reply" box then? Or make the quick reply box also autoquote?

And thanks to some HHs that have started to use the "quote" button. :approve:

[epenguin]

Just bring back the old system! I have cleared my cookies, and washed my disk. I find a post, not for the first time have logged in to get the answer button written my answer, must have taken 15-20 min to do so, forgot to save it, went to view, got invited to log in again, did so, lost my answer. :grumpy: This has now happened several times, I've had enough wasted time!

Often finish up with PF Physics For...X in my thingbar if I press the back button a thing goes round and round for ever, or else I get just a blank screed, maybe my browser, Firefox can't handle the site but it could perfectly before the changes.

Is it intentional that you have to re-log in several times a day? Or even while looking at and answering one thread?

It's no good like this or else it needs instructions for dummies.

[micromass]

Just bring back the old system! I have cleared my cookies, and washed my disk. I find a post, not for the first time have logged in to get the answer button written my answer, must have taken 15-20 min to do so, forgot to save it, went to view, got invited to log in again, did so, lost my answer. :grumpy: This has now happened several times, I've had enough wasted time!

Often finish up with PF Physics For...X in my thingbar if I press the back button a thing goes round and round for ever, or else I get just a blank screed, maybe my browser, Firefox can't handle the site but it could perfectly before the changes.

Is it intentional that you have to re-log in several times a day? Or even while looking at and answering one thread?

It's no good like this or else it needs instructions for dummies.

Did you press the "Remember Me" Button?? It prevents you from logging out!!

[Greg Bernhardt]

Off topic, please refer to this thread
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=553496

[gneill]

Does the problem with deleting initial posts usually only occur with new posters? That is, someone joins, posts a question or two, then tries to erase their tracks? If so, perhaps the edit option could be suppressed for posters with fewer than, say, 15 posts (pick a number). After they become regular users and they've acquired a footprint the motivation for deleting posts should be gone (or evolved to be based upon more altruistic reasons).

[Evo]

Does the problem with deleting initial posts usually only occur with new posters? That is, someone joins, posts a question or two, then tries to erase their tracks? If so, perhaps the edit option could be suppressed for posters with fewer than, say, 15 posts (pick a number). After they become regular users and they've acquired a footprint the motivation for deleting posts should be gone (or evolved to be based upon more altruistic reasons).
Yes, it's mostly new members.

[epenguin]

Did you press the "Remember Me" Button?? It prevents you from logging out!!

Yes, I press it every time.

[NascentOxygen]

Regarding the issue of deleting posts once their question has been answered,
Yes, it's mostly new members.
On the basic homework help forums, I'm surprised by how many threads get started by users with a posting history of fewer than 6 or 7 posts. This raises the question: are they creating a new login name each time they wish to ask a new question, or are newcomers finding that the forum doesn't provide the immediacy of assistance they'd hoped for and drift away, meaning they never go on to accumulate even a two digit posting history?

[Ryan_m_b]

Regarding the issue of deleting posts once their question has been answered,

On the basic homework help forums, I'm surprised by how many threads get started by users with a posting history of fewer than 6 or 7 posts. This raises the question: are they creating a new login name each time they wish to ask a new question, or are newcomers finding that the forum doesn't provide the immediacy of assistance they'd hoped for and drift away, meaning they never go on to accumulate even a two digit posting history?
If it is the same person we would know. I think it's more of a case of students wanting help for a particular problem only, after they get help they never come back.

[I like Serena]

If it is the same person we would know.

How would we know?

[Ryan_m_b]

How would we know?
The mentors have various means of detecting sockpuppets. On top of that there are various members who are good at telling this just by posting behaviour.