Infinite Energy With Fuel Cells?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of using fuel cells and electrolysis in a closed loop system, exploring the implications of energy generation and efficiency. Participants examine the theoretical possibility of achieving infinite energy through this setup, while addressing the practical limitations involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a closed loop system where electrolysis and fuel cells are used together, suggesting that it results in infinite energy, but expresses uncertainty about the validity of this conclusion.
  • Another participant points out that work must be done to electrolyze water, requiring a potential difference and current, which implies energy input is necessary.
  • A third participant mentions the efficiencies of both electrolysis and fuel cells, estimating them to be around 50%, and argues that energy loss due to inefficiencies will lead to a decrease in usable energy over cycles, ultimately stopping the process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus. While some explore the theoretical implications of the closed loop system, others emphasize the practical limitations and inefficiencies that would prevent infinite energy generation.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of energy input and efficiency losses, but do not resolve the mathematical implications of energy conservation in this context.

NanakiXIII
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I've got a problem. I tried to see what would happen when putting a fuel cell and electrolysis in a circle. I end up with infinite energy, so I must be doing something wrong.

Electrolysis

4 H2O -> 4 H+ + 4 OH-
4 H+ + 4 e- -> 4 H -> 2 H2 || The H2 is lead to the fuel cell anode
4 OH- -> O2 + 2 H2O + 4 e- || The O2 is lead to the fuel cell cathode, the electrons continue down the circuit to the fuel cell cathode

The electrons complete the circuit

Fuel Cell

2 H2 -> 4 H+ + 4 e- || The electrons are lead to the external circuit - electrolysis
4 H+ + 4 e- + O2 -> 2 H2O + heat[/color] || The circle is complete, the water can be lead to be electrolysed again


Now that all works out, you have an infinite circle with no particular use. Or do you? Where the protons, electrons and oxygen reunite into water, heat is produced. Thus you have infinite heat. Not possible, I'd think. What am I missing?
 
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What about the work done in electrolysing water in the first place ?

You need to apply some potential difference V, and drive some current I. You are doing work at a rate of VI per second.
 
the efficency of electrolysizing water into hydrogen and oxygen gas is roughly 50% I think, also, the efficency of a fuel cell taking that gas and recombining it into water is only about 50% aswell.
so if you start out giving it a certain amount of energy to start it off, after each cycle, there is only 1/4 of the previous total left (50% of 50%). it won't take long for the amount of energy remaining to be less than what is needed to break the water apart, so the cycle will stop. the problem is all the heat loss, both in electrolysis and in the fuel cell, energy, in the form of heat, is lost and unless you keep replenishing it, everything will come to a stop.
 
I see, thanks.
 

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