Register to reply

Church and Judge . Where's the different?

by VietDao29
Tags: church, judge
Share this thread:
VietDao29
#1
Jun17-10, 01:17 AM
HW Helper
VietDao29's Avatar
P: 1,422
I'm not sure where to post this thread. It's not really a homework assignment, and it doesn't seem to belong to the Homework section either. While I am trying to improve my phonetics skills, I come across this pair of words church, and judge. Although the dictionary says that their pronunciation(s) are different, I cannot make out any different myself.

Err.. May I ask, how would you guys pronounce the 2 words above? Where's the position of the tongue, how can I do to make the 2 words sound different? Is there any advice?

Thanks guys a lot in advance, :)
Phys.Org News Partner Science news on Phys.org
FIXD tells car drivers via smartphone what is wrong
Team pioneers strategy for creating new materials
Team defines new biodiversity metric
Cyrus
#2
Jun17-10, 01:38 AM
Cyrus's Avatar
P: 4,777
Do you have windows XP?
TubbaBlubba
#3
Jun17-10, 02:06 AM
P: 106
When saying the "dg" sound in "Judge" your tounge's tip should be pressed against the roof of your mouth. When saying the "rch" sound in "church", the sides of your tounge should be touching your teeth, but the tip shouldn't be pressed against the roof of your mouth.


... I don't think that helped, did it?

HeLiXe
#4
Jun17-10, 02:16 AM
P: 412
Church and Judge . Where's the different?

Church....CH(like the "ch" in chicken)ER(like how you wrote Err)CH(like the "ch"in chicken)
Judge.....J(like the "j" in juice)UH(like the "u" in fun)J(like the "dge" in edge)

cherch and juhj

Hope it helps!
GeorginaS
#5
Jun17-10, 02:20 AM
GeorginaS's Avatar
P: 380
I want to know what a "tounge" is.

It's difficult to describe how to place one's mouth to pronounce words, isn't it?

VietDao29, have you tried looking at www.dictionary.com? They have sound on their site so when you search the definition of a word there's an icon of a little speaker to click on right next to the word. When you click on it, a voice says the word out loud. You can get an idea of how the word should sound from there.
Cyrus
#6
Jun17-10, 03:21 AM
Cyrus's Avatar
P: 4,777
Just type it in on that text to speak program on the windows xp control panel.
BobG
#7
Jun17-10, 05:48 AM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
BobG's Avatar
P: 2,280
Quote Quote by GeorginaS View Post
I want to know what a "tounge" is.

It's difficult to describe how to place one's mouth to pronounce words, isn't it?

VietDao29, have you tried looking at www.dictionary.com? They have sound on their site so when you search the definition of a word there's an icon of a little speaker to click on right next to the word. When you click on it, a voice says the word out loud. You can get an idea of how the word should sound from there.
Here's the kicker. In a continous spectrum of sound, the vowel sound for example, there's an infinite number of sounds along that spectrum. Growing up, one learns to identify several small segments of sound as language and the rest are the extraneous sounds that one might make because of a slight stutter, a space filling "uh", or whatever. The filtering occurs without a person even thinking about it. You have to learn how to even hear the letters before you can learn to say them.

Each language identifies its own little segments as a language sound and, usually, the segments are divided up similiarly enough that a people speaking different languages can at least identify not only which sounds are language, but even identify a Spanish "ah", English "ah", etc. Reproducing the other language's sound is a different story, which is why it's so hard to lose an accent if you try to learn a foreign language later on in life. You learned the sounds of language when you were so young that the process is almost subconcious and takes some work to overcome.

There's always exceptions where different languages might not even have the same number of sound segments. Some of those sound segments from a different language just have to share the same slot in your brain's library of sound segments. There is nowhere to put a "ch" and "dg" if you've only got a "zh" drawer in your cabinet.

Actually, a person winds up just adding new drawers as legitimate language sounds if they really want to have any hope of losing their accent when speaking the new language. Continuously trying to correlate foreign language sounds to your own language sounds condemns yourself to never losing your accent when speaking the new language. So the person needs a "ch" drawer, a "dg" drawer, and his original "zh" drawer and it's not that hard to learn when each drawer is appropriate.

Why do you think Russian words have such horrible spellings when written in the English alphabet instead of cyrillic? The sounds from language just don't transport perfectly into the other.

All I can say is that it will take some time to learn how to hear the difference between the two sounds and you have to watch the person say it to really learn it (could be on TV or video, but in person usually works best).
TubbaBlubba
#8
Jun17-10, 06:18 AM
P: 106
Quote Quote by GeorginaS View Post
I want to know what a "tounge" is.

It's difficult to describe how to place one's mouth to pronounce words, isn't it?
Bah, it's one of those typos of mine that just won't go away.
Chi Meson
#9
Jun17-10, 06:43 AM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
Chi Meson's Avatar
P: 1,772
The vowell sound in the middle of the words is not as important as the "ch" and "j" sounds which begin and end each word.

The difference between the "ch" and the "j" sound, is that "ch" is unvoiced, and "j" is voiced.

"Unvoiced" means that the sound is made just by the air hissing through your teeth.

"Voiced" means that your vocal cords are "humming" at the time.

Begin with the "sh" sound. With your teeth closed, and your tongue near the roof of the mouth, breathe out to make the sound of a waterfall. Air only, no vocal cords. The "ch" sound is made with a hard "t" that is stuck to the start of the "sh."

If you "voiced" while doing this, you get the "j" sound. The "d" is a voiced "t," and the "zh" is a voiced "sh." Just as "ch" is a "t-sh," so the "j" is a "d-zh." (This is why the "d" in "judge" disappears; actually, the d is what turns the g into a "j" sound).

The vowell sound in the middle of both words would be almost the same in England, but very different in America, and also different in Scotland, but not the same difference as in America. So, fix the sh/j distinction, and most English speakers would understand you.
BobG
#10
Jun17-10, 08:28 AM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
BobG's Avatar
P: 2,280
Quote Quote by Chi Meson View Post
The vowell sound ......
Wow, now that is a very good explanation.
Chi Meson
#11
Jun17-10, 03:53 PM
Sci Advisor
HW Helper
Chi Meson's Avatar
P: 1,772
Quote Quote by BobG View Post
Wow, now that is a very good explanation.
What, the whole thing? or the "vowell sound" phrase. Well, it's hard to explain sometimes.

The "ur" sound in Church (as pronounced in America) is a "retroflex schwa," or an "r-colored schwa," or "schwa[r]" depending on who's text you read. One thing that just about all linguists agree on is that it is a vowell. It has it's own phonetic symbol, called a "rhotic schwa": ɚ
Here's the best paper I could find on short order
http://members.tripod.com/Caroline_B...n%20Bleile.pdf

Note: Y'know, I only now noticed that you said it "was" a good explanation. At first I thought you said it "was not." And I was perplexed.
Saladsamurai
#12
Jun17-10, 05:33 PM
Saladsamurai's Avatar
P: 3,016
If you don't have Windows XP, as Cyrus suggested, you can also look up the words at http://www.merriam-webster.com and click on the "speaker" icon that appears next to the definition.
leroyjenkens
#13
Jun17-10, 06:10 PM
P: 538
Click on the speaker icon next to the word.
Church - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/church?o=100084

Judge - http://dictionary.reference.com/brow...src=2871&l=dir
DaveC426913
#14
Jun17-10, 07:15 PM
DaveC426913's Avatar
P: 15,319
Quote Quote by Chi Meson View Post
"Unvoiced" means that the sound is made just by the air hissing through your teeth.

"Voiced" means that your vocal cords are "humming" at the time.

Begin with the "sh" sound. With your teeth closed, and your tongue near the roof of the mouth, breathe out to make the sound of a waterfall. Air only, no vocal cords. The "ch" sound is made with a hard "t" that is stuck to the start of the "sh."

If you "voiced" while doing this, you get the "j" sound. The "d" is a voiced "t," and the "zh" is a voiced "sh." Just as "ch" is a "t-sh," so the "j" is a "d-zh." (This is why the "d" in "judge" disappears; actually, the d is what turns the g into a "j" sound).

The vowell sound in the middle of both words would be almost the same in England, but very different in America, and also different in Scotland, but not the same difference as in America. So, fix the sh/j distinction, and most English speakers would understand you.
Yeah, I got fascinated with phonemes after studying some of Tolkien's Middle Earth languages.

Many letters that are unvoiced have an identical voiced counterpart:

f k p s t ch th
v g b z d j  th
Proton Soup
#15
Jun17-10, 11:51 PM
P: 1,070
Quote Quote by BobG View Post
Wow, now that is a very good explanation.
he is a cunning linguist. i however look at the wikipedia IPA stuff and my eyes glaze over. why can't they just use the stuff i spent years in grammar school learning? i had a friend once that tried to teach me how to say "Nguyen", his surname. never did figure it out.
leroyjenkens
#16
Jun18-10, 09:10 AM
P: 538
Quote Quote by Proton Soup View Post
he is a cunning linguist. i however look at the wikipedia IPA stuff and my eyes glaze over. why can't they just use the stuff i spent years in grammar school learning? i had a friend once that tried to teach me how to say "Nguyen", his surname. never did figure it out.
I think it's pronounced like we pronounce the word "when". Like half the people in southeast Asia have that name.


Yeah, and I never understood all these different symbols they use to help you pronounce something. Like that upside down "e" or the one where the "a" and "e" are stuck together. They give me a drunk "e" and some Siamese twin letters to help me pronounce the words. Thanks for the help.
DaveC426913
#17
Jun18-10, 09:16 AM
DaveC426913's Avatar
P: 15,319
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
Many letters that are unvoiced have an identical voiced counterpart:

f  k p s t ch th
v  g b z d j  th
  ng m   n
[EDIT And I forgot, this can be extended even further in some cases.]
The Chaz
#18
Jun18-10, 09:34 AM
P: 186
Colonel angus is a cunning linguist


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Difference between Identical , Equal , Equivalent Calculus & Beyond Homework 9
Separation of Church and State... May God Bless ...the rest of us? Current Events 99