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The quantum state cannot be interpreted statistically?

 
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Mar13-12, 02:34 AM   #494
 
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The quantum state cannot be interpreted statistically?


Quote by Fredrik View Post
Anyone know if the PBR paper has been published, or at least accepted for publication yet?
This perhaps will never happen after the two of the authors in PBR has somewhat contradicted themselves in
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/1201.6554

See also posts #485 - #488.
Mar13-12, 03:34 AM   #495
 
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Quote by Demystifier View Post
This perhaps will never happen after the two of the authors in PBR has somewhat contradicted themselves in
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/1201.6554
This doesn't seem to be a reason to not publish it, since the abstract says that "The results of this paper do not contradict that theorem, since the models violate one of its assumptions". However, if it was up to me to decide if the PBR paper should be published or not, I would at least demand that they rewrite the paper. I think it's just a mess. There isn't even a clear statement of the theorem in the article, and the "proof" is extremely non-rigorous.
Mar16-12, 08:31 PM   #496
 
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The author of the last paper on PBR http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/1203.2475.pdf posted in Leifer's blog and Leifer doesn't seem to agree with his take on it:
I don’t really agree with your take on the PBR theorem. According to Harrgian and Spekkens, and also PBR, λ is supposed to be the full ontic state of the system. If the wavefunction is ontic in the model under consideration, then it is considered to be specified by λ and is not considered a separate variable. This is the reason why the term “ontic state” is used instead of “hidden variable state” because the latter is often interpreted to be variables in addition to the wavefunction. Most people would consider the wavefunction to be ontic in de Broglie-Bohm theory. I know there is some discussion of whether it should instead be regarded as nomological (lawlike) in the literature, but this is not really relevant here. The fact is, even if we know the exact values of the position variables in Bohm’s theory, we will still also need the wavefunction in addition to the position variables to compute the outcome probabilities for any experiment because it is needed to find the trajectories. Anything you need to compute the final outcome probabilities, over and above the primitive ontology (beables), is considered part of the ontic state by PBR by definition. You might not like that definition, but by using it we see that one feature of Bohmian theory is actually necessary for any hidden variable theory, namely that the wavefunction is ontic (in the sense of being required to compute the probabilities of any possible experiment). Therefore, Bohmians should be pretty happy about the PBR result as it vindicates one of their assumptions.

Also, I just wanted to note that I do not understand your discussion around eq. (10). Why do you think we can always replace a qubit state with one that has equal amplitudes up to a relative phase?
Quantum Times Article on the PBR Theorem
http://mattleifer.info/2012/02/26/qu.../#comment-2618
Mar22-12, 05:30 AM   #497
 
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Another new paper on it:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1203.4779
Mar22-12, 08:06 PM   #498
 
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I thought I'd post these PBR-related papers here for reference:

Physics papers:
The quantum state cannot be interpreted statistically (original PBR paper)
http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328

Generalisations of the recent Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph theorem for statistical models of quantum phenomena
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/1111.6304

Completeness of quantum theory implies that wave functions are physical properties
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/...111.6597v1.pdf

The quantum state should be interpreted statistically
http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/1112.2446.pdf

Alternative Experimental Protocol for a PBR-Like Result
http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/1202.6465.pdf

The quantum state can be interpreted statistically
http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/1201.6554.pdf

Can quantum mechanics be considered as statistical? an analysis of the PBR theorem
http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/1203.2475.pdf

On a recent quantum no-go theorem
http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/1203.4779.pdf

Popular:
Quantum theorem shakes foundations
http://www.nature.com/news/quantum-t...dations-1.9392

PBR, EPR, and all that jazz
http://www.aps.org/units/gqi/newslet...d/vol6num3.pdf

The PBR Argument - a simplified presentation
http://astairs.posterous.com/the-pbr...d-presentation

Useful Blogs:
Can the quantum state be interpreted statistically?
http://mattleifer.info/2011/11/20/ca...statistically/

Quantum Times Article on the PBR Theorem
http://mattleifer.info/2012/02/26/qu...e-pbr-theorem/

Philosophical papers:
Statistical-Realism versus Wave-Realism in the Foundations of Quantum
Mechanics

http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/9021..._Mechanics.pdf
Mar23-12, 03:51 AM   #499
 
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Bohm2, thank you for the very useful list!
Mar24-12, 01:01 AM   #500
 
Thanks for the references/links bohm2. I think that quantum states can be interpreted statistically, ie., that quantum states don't necessarily represent real physical states. But if you think otherwise, then it would be interesting to read your opinion on that.
Apr16-12, 03:03 AM   #501
 
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One related paper (not on the list above) recently published in Physical Review Letters:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.6597
Apr27-12, 02:38 PM   #502
 
tag.
May7-12, 10:25 PM   #503
 
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Quote by Fredrik View Post
Anyone know if the PBR paper has been published, or at least accepted for publication yet?
There was an advance online publication in "Nature Physics" on May 6/12:

On the reality of the quantum state
http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/...nphys2309.html
May8-12, 02:02 AM   #504
 
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Quote by bohm2 View Post
There was an advance online publication in "Nature Physics" on May 6/12:

On the reality of the quantum state
http://www.nature.com/nphys/journal/...nphys2309.html
See also their significantly revised arXiv preprint that appeared today:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1111.3328 v2


Hardy also uploaded a related paper today: Are quantum states real?
http://lanl.arxiv.org/abs/1205.1439
May10-12, 01:05 AM   #505
 
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That Hardy paper was really confusing. A video (May 8/12) from Perimeter Institute by Robert Spekkens discussing PBR but he doesn't seem persuaded to become a psi-ontologist:

This talk will address the question of whether the PBR theorem should be interpreted as lending evidence against the psi-epistemic research program. I will review the evidence in favour of the psi-epistemic approach and describe the pre-existing reasons for thinking that if a quantum state represents knowledge about reality then it is not reality as we know it, i.e., it is not the kind of reality that is posited in the standard hidden variable framework. I will argue that the PBR theorem provides additional clues for "what has to give" in the hidden variable framework rather than providing a reason to retreat from the psi-epistemic position... The connection between the PBR theorem and other no-go results will be discussed. In particular, I will point out how the second assumption of the theorem is an instance of preparation noncontextuality, a property that is known not to be achievable in any ontological model of quantum theory, regardless of the status of separability (though not in the form posited by PBR). I will also consider the connection of PBR to the failure of local causality by considering an experimental scenario which is in a sense a time-inversion of the PBR scenario.
Why I Am Not a Psi-ontologist
http://pirsa.org/displayFlash.php?id=12050021
May10-12, 01:34 AM   #506
 
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Bohm2, thank you for this info. In particular, I would like to quote a part of a sentence by Spekkens above:
"... the second assumption of the theorem is an instance of preparation noncontextuality, a property that is known not to be achievable in any ontological model of quantum theory ..."
That was exactly my objection too in an early stage of this thread.
May22-12, 04:00 PM   #507
 
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An interesting PhD thesis arguing for state realism that also discusses the recent PBR theorem quite a bit. Interesting, that one of the examiners for this thesis is Robert Spekkens:

The case for quantum state realism
http://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent...ype=additional
May22-12, 05:21 PM   #508
 
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Quote by bohm2 View Post
An interesting PhD thesis arguing for state realism that also discusses the recent PBR theorem quite a bit. Interesting, that one of the examiners for this thesis is Robert Spekkens:

The case for quantum state realism
http://ir.lib.uwo.ca/cgi/viewcontent...ype=additional
As I interpret quantum state realism: I would say that ANY 2 particles with the same eigenstates are absolutely indistinguishable. They therefore have NO HIDDEN differences. If you accept that, then you would also conclude that the collapse upon measurement absolutely changes the state and does not reveal a pre-existing characteristic. Thus you would reject the idea that it is only our knowledge which is being updated, and this is not Bayesian conditionalization.

I am not saying this is actually the case, just that is how I understand the concept. The author of the cited paper (Tait) discusses some of these ideas in detail.
Jun5-12, 01:02 AM   #509
 
Quote by bohm2 View Post

Generalisations of the recent Pusey-Barrett-Rudolph theorem for statistical models of quantum phenomena
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/1111.6304

....For example, the ‘factorisability’ assumption used by PBR can be replaced by a far weaker ‘compatibility’ assumption for the preparations of uncorrelated quantum states.....

in agreement with leifer.
Jun28-12, 09:16 PM   #510
 
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Another paper on PBR:
The analysis of Pusey, Barrett and Rudolph aims to show there can be no objective physical reality which underlies, and is more general than, the state vector. But there appears to be a gap in their reasoning. To show their result, they use entangled states of independent systems. However, no specific experimental arrangement to detect these entangled states has been proposed. Thus their argument as it stands does not fully show there is a detectable conflict between the predictions of quantum mechanics and the existence of an underlying reality. And it is not clear that one can devise the necessary measuring device.
A problem with the Pusey, Barrett, Rudolph analysis of the reality of the quantum state.
http://lanl.arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/pape.../1206.6491.pdf
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