Wild dogs howl and house dogs bark

cmyounger

Everything I remember seeing in the past year or so is summarized in the Wikipedia article, "Origin of the domestic dog."

ViewsofMars

Ok, so please give me the actual article(s) with a link(url) so I can read them. I prefer not using Wikipedia. I do recall asking you earlier on about providing me an article to support your claims. I am looking for scientific articles. Also, please keep in mind that the most recent information is extremely important. (Be sure to look at the date of the scientific article) Thank you in advance for your consideration in this matter.

cmyounger

I recall seeing some scientific articles cited in the Wikipedia article I referenced. There are links there. As I said the article rather completely covers what I remember reading online in the last 6 months to a year. You can logically make no request, but I believe I've answered your question twice.

ViewsofMars

If you make a statement then it is up to you to provide the link(url) that supports your remarks. I don't have the time to muddle through all the links found in Wikipedia to verify the truth of your statement(s). It is a well-known fact that an article and/or link (url) be provided to support your claim. This is how it is done by professionals. I'm trying to teach you how to do it properly to avoid any problems in the future. I just now looked at the Wikipedia article you mentioned and it is lengthy. I did not find any of my articles on this topic by using Wikipedia.

cmyounger

I wasn't aware of any remarks that needed additional support. I will look forward to learning of any.

Darwin123

Barking is actually a juvenile behavior of wolves. Puppies bark to get attention
from their mothers. Barking does not have much use to wolves. Wolves lose their
propensity to bark as they age. Dogs have evolved or been bred to keep many
juvenile characteristics.
Adult wolves do a lot of signalling with their body motions, especially their tails.
Making noises while hunting is not very useful. Howling is a behavior useful in
coordinating animals that live a distance from each other. Wolves and dogs howl
to so other wolves can find them. They don't want their mommies to feed them,
they just want their pack. Howling is a more "adult" behavior for wolves. Dogs also
howl, but not as often as wolves.
The differences between dogs and wolves are an example of a process called paedomorphism. Paedomorphism is where the maturing process of an organism stops
earlier for every developmental feature except sexual maturity. An adult animal that
undergoes paedomorphism has a resemblance to the juvenile stage of an ancestor,
except in regards to sexual maturity. The sexual maturity of a paedomorphic animal
is often speeded up with regards to the ancestor.
Natural selection sometimes speeds up the sexual maturity of an organism while
leaving most of the other features alone. Some genetic variations speed up the
process of sexual maturity, and so enhance those features. However, the
development of most of other inherited features stop once sexual maturity has
been achieved. So when sexual maturity is speeded up, the adult keeps more
juvenile features.
Certain features of wolf puppies have been kept by the adult or adolescent
dogs. For example, the brain weight relative to body weight has decreased in
dogs relative to wolves. Floppy ears are a feature of wolf puppies, but not of
wolf adults. The adults of some breeds of dogs have floppy ears. Wolf puppies
are more trusting than wolf adults. Adult dogs are as trusting as wolf puppies.
Finally, adult dogs bark just like puppies.
Three things are usually associated with paedomorphism. First, the paedomorphic
individual is usually reproduces more often then its ancestor. Second, the
paedomorphic individual often has a shorter life span than its ancestor. Third, the
paedomorphic individual is usually smaller than its ancestor.
Dogs are reproductive giants compared to wolves. A wolf can take up to two years
to reach sexual maturity. Dogs reach sexual maturity in less than six months.
The other two features have been changed in some breeds by breeding. The
first dogs appear about 15 KYA. Breeding was started about 3 KYA. So not all
breeds have all the paedomorphic features. Furthermore, there has been a
little back breeding between dogs and wolves. Therefore, there is variation
between dog breeds that don't precisely follow the paedomorphic model. However,
for the most part dogs are paedomorphic wolves.
Most breeds of dogs have the other two paedomorphic features. Most
adult dog breeds have floppy ears, just like wolf puppies. Most adult dog
breeds have a shorter lifespan than wolves. Most adult dog breeds are smaller than
wolves.
Paedomorphism must not be confused with neotony. Neotony is when juvenile
features are retained by the slowing up of sexual maturity. Human beings are
neotonous apes. Dogs are not neotonous wolves. However, neotony is another
story.

Darwin123

>If you make a statement then it is up to you to provide the link(url) that supports your >remarks. I don't have the time to muddle through all the links found in Wikipedia to verify >the truth of your statement(s).
I am not allowed yet to put down links. I would if I could. However, I find
your attitude a little offensive. I am not here to do your research for you.
I feel that I just have to provide a few key words to make your research
easier.
Google is available to everybody here. A few keywords are sufficient to find
many articles referring to what is stated.
Try googling of "Paedomorphism: and "dog evolution". Or try "paedomorphism"
and "foxes". Experiments have been done with foxes showing that paedomorphism
can be induced in animals using traditional breeding methods.
Foxes are a different genus than dogs and wolves. Foxes are
similar wolves, but can't interbreed with wolves. Wolves and dogs can interbreed,
but wolves and foxes can't. However, the anatomy of a fox does in some ways
resemble the anatomy of a wolf. So these experiments with foxes were
instructive.
Someone did experiments breeding foxes, and managed to breed a
paedomorphic fox. The paedomorphic fox was very similar to dogs.
Several articles on these foxes were published a while back. I do not
remember where these studies were published. I would have to use Google
exactly like you would have to use Google. I think it would be excellent
practice for you to research the topic yourself, using these hints and
keywords.

nitsuj

Nice write up Darwin123! Interesting read for sure.

I remember hearing a description of dogs as "baby wolves". And it pretty much always seemed the case, whether it be chasing squirrels, playing tug-of-war, or chasing a laser at 9yrs old.

cmyounger

Neoteny appears to be one of the two forms of pedomorphism: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoteny

The citation for neoteny in the evolution of dog breeds in Wikipedia leads to something by Stephen J. Gould, where I probably saw it at one time.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_domestic_dog#Neoteny_in_the_rapid_evolution_of_diverse_do g_breeds

Whether their rapid evolution is an example of neoteny or progenesis is still an open question for me, at least until I can give the question more consideration, or come across a more detailed explanation. It's certainly interesting. A recent article about how dinosaurs became birds caught my eye in this specific regard: phys.org/news/2012-05-developmental-crucial-evolutionary-shift-dinosaurs.html

"This phenomenon, where a change in the developmental timing of a creature produces morphological changes is called heterochrony, and paedomorphosis is one example of it," Abzhanov explained. "In the case of birds, we can see that the adults of a species look increasingly like the juveniles of their ancestors."

ViewsofMars

I'm a scientist and quite frankly I don't have a need for Google except to read my Gmail from this website which rarely happens since I come directly to PhysicsForums. One reason I don't use Wikipedia.org is I've gotten spam from it so I try my best to look for the most current scientific article(s) elsewhere like on my computer or a scientific website. Also, I've often seen people who use Wikipedia pluck only what they think is the best that suites him/her. Furthermore, I prefer the actual article with it's link and usually find that from my computer or directly from a scientific website. I have no need for an encyclopedia = Wikipedia. If you think teachers or scientists where I live or work tell students look for the answer on Wikipedia then you would be wrong.

Have a good day. I'm done with this topic.

bobze

Sure Wikipedia isn't appropriate for something like publishing a paper, or a school (though I'd say high school+, I think middle school it should probably be fair game)--But its a great start for the layman of anything and good source for an introduction to a topic.

Its also great for directing laymen to other related topics, they might have been unaware. Scientific literature is for scientists. Its not designed with the laymen (or even other scientists) in mind. Its directed and specific to a very narrow area of scientific interest--And generally that community working on that specific subject is rather small (and tend to be well known to each other).

Its also important to remember that because something is in the scientific literature it isn't "laid in stone" or the "grail". Lots and lots of crappy papers get published and pass-peer review (even in journals like Science and Nature--Remember that whole arsenic thing?). Simply knowing something is published literature doesn't inform one on the topic. One has to take it a step further and use that scientific training of theirs to discriminate whether said publication is saying something significant or not. That is something most laymen are not capable of doing. Which is why for a non-scientist a general link to something like Wikipedia is great.

Darwin123

I made a small mistake. I should have been more specific.
The process that made wolves into dogs is a specific type of
paedomorphosis called progenesis. Progenesis is when there is
an early cessation to somatic development. In other words, the
gonads of the descendent reach sexual maturity at an earlier
stage of development than the gonads of the ancestor. The result
is that certain traits in the juvenile ancestor are retained in the
adult descendent.
For example, the adult descendent may have the same over all shape
and size as the juvenile ancestor. Dogs show progenesis relative to wolves.
This should not be confused with neoteny. Neotony is another form
of paedomorphosis. In neotony, certain features grow at a slower rate in
the descendents then they did with the ancestors. This results in
a descendent where certain other juvenile traits are retained in the
ancestor.
For example, the descendent after neoteny may have a skull which is
disproportionally proportionally large compared to the skull of an
adult ancestor. However, the size of the adult descendent may be as
large as the adult of the ancestor. Humans show neoteny relative to
their primate ancestors.

Darwin123

Barking might be more common in juvenile animals though and that would be a good hypothesis. As has been seen in foxes, where neotenous traits were selected through domestication as well.
Dogs appear to be to have evolved from wolves by progenesis, not by neoteny.
Dogs reach sexual maturity quicker than wolves reach sexual maturity. Most of the
juvenile traits of wolves are frozen into the adult dogs by sexual maturity.
Human beings appear to have evolved from apes by neoteny, not progensis.
Human beings reach sexual maturity slower than wolves reach sexual maturity.
The adult human is larger than an adult ape, yet has largely the same shape as a
juvenile ape.

Ryan_m_b

This is a very important point, the number of papers that I see that are just flat out poor yet published (sometimes in respectable journals) is worrying. It behooves everyone to remember that peer-review is the absolute minimum for credibility, nothing more. The validity of a study should be based on it's methodology and the conclusions drawn from the data, this is a bigger discussion of course but it is very important to keep in mind.

We don't want to perpetuate the idea that published = credible or correct.

Darwin123

Coyotes are rather flexible with regards to their daily schedule. When I was jogging in New Mexico desert about noon, I would stop and see a coyote looking at me. A few coyotes have recently appeared in Maryland, where I now live. While I never saw any of them directly, I was told that they like twilight and night. They scavenge the garbage. So here, they like the hours before the garbage pick up.