
#1
Dec1912, 03:42 PM

P: 8

Dear forum
I have s issue concerning rectification of a sinusoidal voltage with a diode. It is a experiment i am doing. The case is a 1N4001 diode in series with a lamp and a capacitor in parallel to the lamp. The circuit is supplied by a sinusoidal voltage with a rms value of 2.2 V. The set up can be seen on the attached file called "Half_wave_rectifier". (The switch is open so the diode does not get bypassed). On the attached file called "HalfWaveV_L" is 3 graphs showing the voltages of the lamp. The yellow is with zero capacitance and the orange and red is with the capacitances drscriped at the figure. My first question is why the wave has higher peak values with capacitors than without a capacitor? To that comes why the wavetops for the yellow graph is apruptly cut of, compared to the round tops of the orange and the red graph. I have also measured the rms current in the circuit for the various capacitances, and it gets bigger the bigger the capacitance is. I cant understand why that really is. The peak values of the voltage increases with the capacitance, so that kind of explains it, but then again, why does the peak values grow? The rms currents meassured was 0.26 A for the yellow graph, 0.4 A for the orange graph and 0.41A for the red graph. I understand that a capacitor in parallel works as a energystorage which can supply the system with voltage when the voltage of the power supply gets low. I hope you can help, that this is the right place for my post. 



#2
Dec1912, 04:49 PM

Mentor
P: 10,813

Interesting result. How did you measure voltage and current?
One guess: The capacitor increases current and therefore the average load of the lamp  it gets hotter, and its resistance might increase. If the power supply is not perfect and its voltage depends on the current, this might lead to a higher peak voltage. I would not expect this, but something has to explain your observations and I don't see anything better at the moment. 



#3
Dec1912, 05:47 PM

P: 5,462

Firstly I assume you voltage axis is measuring the voltage across the lamp (and capacitor).
OK so the yellow curve is a poor quality half wave rectified waveform. When the capacitor is in circuit it charges to the peak value of the voltage (or nearly so depending upon the available current). this will be the true peak not properly shown by your yellow curve. The part of the orange and brown curves that you see in the part of the cycle when the diode is non conducting show the classic exponential discharge curve for the capacitor through a resistor (the lamp). The capacitor is releasing its stored charge through the lamp and the curve shows that it has the same polarity as the rectified supply  which is what you would expect. Note also that the smaller capacitor shows a deeper discharge  the curve coming coloser to zero. Nice experiment. 



#4
Dec1912, 06:23 PM

Sci Advisor
Thanks
P: 2,956

Smoothing of rectified voltage with capacitor 



#5
Dec1912, 06:49 PM

P: 5,462

The inductance of a lamp is not likely to be sufficient. 



#6
Dec2012, 02:37 AM

P: 8

And thank you for your guess, but the differences in current are just very big. I do not udnerstand what you mean with that: "the inductance of the lamp is not liekly to be sufficient"? Sufficient for what? Attched is two graphs. The orange graph is of the voltage from the power supplied which was measured while the circuit was conencted. (It was measured with the osciloscope, and over the terminals of the power supply). And the red graph is the same as yellow before. (the voltage over the lamp, where no capacitor is connected). Maybe this can help with something. This graphs reminds me of another problem: the red graph is slightly shiftet compared to orange one. How can this be? 



#7
Dec2012, 04:13 AM

P: 5,462

The difference in height of the orange and red peaks on your new graphs corresponds to the forward voltage drop across the diode.
Yes the capacitor introduces a phase shift. Yes the current will increase with capacitance, a capacitor represents an AC load in parallel with the lamp. Now was this a class experiment or what? You have made lots of (correct) observations but offered few explanations. Has your classroom worksheet drawn attention to these points or is this your own work? 



#8
Dec2012, 05:00 AM

Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 11,358

The rms current is higher with a reservoir capacitor because the average (height squared) of the voltage curves is greater (it's on for longer). If you had a 1F capacitor, the volts would be high all the time  the only factor to reduce the available volts would be the source resistance of the upstream circuit. 



#9
Dec2012, 06:02 AM

P: 5,462





#10
Dec2012, 06:50 AM

P: 861

If you're keen to understand the behaviour of your particular circuit, this comment should be ignored.
If, though, you're more interested in the effect of a reservoir capacitor on halfwave rectification, I'd swap the (severely nonohmic) filament lamp for a resistor. 



#11
Dec2012, 07:32 AM

Mentor
P: 10,813

In addition, you could disconnect the lamp and check the voltage with and without capacitors. 



#12
Dec2012, 07:40 AM

Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 11,358





#13
Dec2012, 07:45 AM

Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 11,358





#14
Dec2012, 08:34 AM

P: 8

This is a experiment I am doing with a group for a project. Our supervisore told us that maybe there can be a problem with the measureent of the current as a rms value. This is a mode on the multimeter designet for ordinary alternating current, which is not the cast here.
And that maybe the graphs are shifted because the readings was not taken at simultaniusly on the oscilloscope. (meaning that some shift can have occured in the pricessing of measuring the graphs.) I will think about all the comments and write back later. I dont have much time right now. 



#15
Dec2012, 11:46 AM

P: 127

Then you can hook up an O'scope across the resistor and measure the voltage, your current will have to be figured out with a calculator, I=E/R so if you have 1 volt across a 1 ohm resistor you have 1 amp of current and so forth. If you measure 100 mv across a 0.1 ohm resistor, that is also 1 amp of current assuming DC voltage. and 1 mv across that 0.1 ohm resistor, 1/100th amp, 10 milliamps. That would be showing peak to peak on the oscope so you would need to convert that first to RMS which I believe is (2^1/2)/4 which would be 0.707/2 which is 0.3535 times the peak so in that case if you saw 100 mv p/p you would have an RMS of 35.35 millivolts RMS. That is the DC equivalent of the ac voltage, so 100 mv p/p would be the same as if it were DC at 35.35 mv. So using those figures, .035 (35mv) /0.1, the current in RMS terms would be 0.3535 amp, 353.5 milliamps. You then have a current reading as accurate as the Oscope and the accuracy of the resistance. Getting a 0.1 ohm resistor would mean you would have to pretty much take their word for it that it is a 1/10th ohm since you won't see that on most DVM's. you would need a milliohm meter, not something floating around much. 



#16
Dec2012, 12:13 PM

Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 11,358

Any ordinary meter will only give you rms values by assuming a sinusoidal waveform. These waveforms are definitely not. One good way to measure the 'proper' rms current would be to use the data output from your oscilloscope. What form is its output? It seems to have ported to an output / printing device so the numbers are there. If you look at the voltage across a 0.1 Ohm resistor, the data you get will tell you the current (scaled by 1/10) at each instant in time so you can square and sum those values and divide by the number of values. I appreciate that may be hard to organise in software but you could always get instantaneous values of current off a printed version of the graph and do a pencil and paper calculation. Draw and measure vertical bars every few mm over one whole cycle.




#17
Dec2012, 12:25 PM

Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 11,358

If you compare the two graphs you have produced, the 'raw waveforms' are not the same but the input sinusoid in the second graph has a strange 'flat top' on it and an even flatter bottom. What sort of source are you using? Is it a pukkah transformer or a signal generator of some sort? If it is then you may be running into source problems which will confuse things.




#18
Dec2112, 06:30 AM

P: 8

Okay guys
We are turning in the project today, so we cant make changes to the set up. We are asuming that the graphs was shifted compared to each other when it was meassured with the oscilloscope. The graphs was not emassured simultainously so the oscilloscope might have taken different zero points. We have dropped the observations of the currents as the meassured currents was not sinusoidal, and the ammeter we used was set to meassure rms value of a sinusoidal current. I just need to get one thing clear: When the capacitor is charged by the rectyfied voltage (V_rec), it has some voltage betweeen its plates (V_c). When the diode is reverse biased it is clear that only V_c contributes to the voltage over the lamp (V_L), but it is unclear to me what the situation is in the second half of the forward bias where v_rec is falling. From the attached graphes it is evident that the exponential behaviour if the red and orange graphs begins before V_rec reaches zero. Is it true that that V_c+V_rec cannot exceed the maximum value of V_rec at any time? 


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