Ampere-Maxwell law seems to contradict causality?

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    Maxwel's equations
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the Ampere-Maxwell law in relation to causality, particularly in scenarios involving rapid changes in electric and magnetic fields. Participants explore whether instantaneous magnetic fields generated by a spark can contradict the principle of causality.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that a spark can produce a magnetic field instantaneously at all distances, raising the question of whether this contradicts causality.
  • Another participant argues that the assumption of instantaneous effects is flawed, stating that differential Maxwell’s equations hold at a point and thus do not allow for delays.
  • A later reply reiterates that the tangential magnetic field appears instantaneous, but emphasizes that the initial assumption about the speed of the spark is incorrect.
  • One participant asserts that rapid events would actually lead to larger values of the time derivative terms, challenging the validity of the original assumption regarding the behavior of the fields.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the validity of the initial assumption about instantaneous effects and the implications for causality. No consensus is reached on whether the Ampere-Maxwell law contradicts causality.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence on the assumptions made about the speed of the spark and the behavior of the fields involved. The discussion remains focused on the implications of these assumptions without resolving the underlying mathematical or physical claims.

Bob44
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Let us take the Ampere-Maxwell law

$$\nabla \times \mathbf{B} = \mu_0\,\mathbf{J}+\frac{1}{c^2}\frac{\partial \mathbf{E}}{\partial t}.\tag{1}$$

Assume we produce a spark that is so fast that the ##\partial \mathbf{E}/\partial t## term in eqn.##(1)## has not yet been produced by Faraday’s law of induction
$$\nabla \times \mathbf{E}=-\frac{\partial \mathbf{B}}{\partial t}\tag{2}$$
since the current density ##\mathbf{J}## has not yet had time to generate the magnetic field ##\mathbf{B}##.

By integrating eqn.##(1)## and using Stokes law we find

$$\oint \mathbf{B}\cdot d\mathbf{l}=\mu_0 I,\tag{3}$$
$$B=\frac{\mu_0 I}{2\pi r}.\tag{4}$$
This seems to imply that a tangential magnetic field with strength ##B## appears instantly around the spark at all distances ##r##.

Does this contradict causality?
 
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Bob44 said:
Assume we produce a spark that is so fast that the ∂E/∂t term in eqn.(1) has not yet been produced
That is an impossible assumption. The differential Maxwell’s equations hold at a point. So there is no delay

Bob44 said:
the current density J has not yet had time to generate the magnetic field B.
Similarly here.
 
But the tangential magnetic field produced by the spark due to Stokes law is still instantaneous at all distances. This seems to contradict causality regardless of the radiation that later travels from the spark at the speed of light.
 
Bob44 said:
But the tangential magnetic field produced by the spark due to Stokes law is still instantaneous at all distances.
No. It just means that your assumption is wrong.

Look, your assumption is basically that something happened which is so fast that ##\partial/\partial t## terms were zero. But that is patently a bad assumption. When things happen fast is precisely when ##\partial/\partial t## terms are largest.

Your conclusions based on this wrong assumption are simply wrong. In fact, proof by contradiction is a common way of proving that an assumption is false.
 
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