Computable sequence of rationals with a noncomputable limit

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Hill
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the convergence of a computable sequence of rationals, specifically in the context of a proof from Stillwell's "Reverse Mathematics". Participants explore the implications of finite binary expansions and the properties of the sequence defined by the summation of terms related to a function.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the sequence ##r_1, r_2, ...## converges, seeking clarification on the convergence criteria.
  • Another participant suggests that the finite binary expansion of the series implies it sums to a finite number.
  • A participant points out that since the function ##f## is an injection on a subset of ##D##, each term ##r_n## is less than 1, and if the sequence is increasing and bounded, it converges.
  • Some participants express confusion about the convergence of the sequence, particularly distinguishing between summing to a finite number versus infinity.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the sequence ##r_n=\sum_{i=1}^n 2^{-f(i)}##, with some uncertainty about whether it is necessarily increasing.
  • One participant emphasizes that for the limit to exist, the sequence must converge, raising questions about the conditions for convergence.
  • A later reply provides a description of the set ##D##, which may clarify the proof but does not resolve the convergence question.
  • Another participant acknowledges a mistake regarding the increasing nature of the sequence in a previous post.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the convergence of the sequence, with some asserting it converges due to being bounded and increasing, while others question the assumptions leading to that conclusion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the criteria for convergence.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions about the nature of the sequence and the definitions of the terms involved. The distinction between finite and infinite summation is a point of contention.

Hill
Messages
792
Reaction score
614
TL;DR
There is a computable sequence of rational numbers with limit whose n-th binary digit is not a computable function of n
This is a proof of the above statement in Stillwell's "Reverse Mathematics", p.77:

1768925171166.webp


My question is, how do we know that the sequence ##r_1, r_2, ...## converges?
 
Mathematics news on Phys.org
Doesn't this come from the series being finite binary expansion? Being finite it will sum to a finite number.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: FactChecker
You should describe ##D## for us, I assume it is a subset of the natural numbers.
With that in mind:
Since ##f## is an injection on a subset of ##D##, each ##r_n \lt \sum_{i=1}^\infty 2^{-i} = 1##. Since the sequence, ##r_n## is increasing and bounded, it converges.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Hill
jedishrfu said:
Doesn't this come from the series being finite binary expansion? Being finite it will sum to a finite number.
I don't understand.
I understand that each ##r_n## has a finite binary expansion. I also understand that if the sequence converges, the limit is a finite number. I just don't see how we know that the sequence converges.
 
FactChecker said:
You should describe ##D## for us, I assume it is a subset of the natural numbers.
Yes, it is.

FactChecker said:
Since ##f## is an injection on a subset of ##D##, each ##r_n \lt \sum_{i=1}^\infty 2^{-i} = 1##. Since the sequence, ##r_n## is increasing and bounded, it converges.
The sequence ##r_n=\sum_{i=1}^n 2^{-i}## is increasing, but not necessarily the sequence ##r_n=\sum_{i=1}^n 2^{-f(i)}##, I think.
 
You are summing to n not to infinity. Convergence doesn't come into play.

A finite expansion will have a finite number of terms and in this case each term is ##2^{-1}## or did I misread the text.
 
jedishrfu said:
You are summing to n not to infinity. Convergence doesn't come into play.

A finite expansion will have a finite number of terms and in this case each term is ##2^-1## or did I misread the text.
The statement is about n-th binary digit of the limit. For the limit to exist, the sequence needs to converge, doesn't it?
 
Perhaps it is not important for my question, but in case it clarifies the proof, here is the description of ##D##, with explanation of the notation:

Screenshot 2026-01-20 122623.webp
 
FactChecker said:
Since ##f## is an injection on a subset of ##D##, each ##r_n \lt \sum_{i=1}^\infty 2^{-i} = 1##. Since the sequence, ##r_n## is increasing and bounded, it converges.
You're right. The sequence ##r_n=\sum_{i=1}^n 2^{-f(i)}## is increasing. I was mistaken in the post #5.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
9K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K