Linear independence of vectors through a problem

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brotherbobby
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Homework Statement
Use vector methods to show that two lines from one vertex of a parallelogram to the midpoints of the two opposite sides trisect the diagonal. (Additionally, if I may add, show that the diagonal itself trisects both those lines.
Relevant Equations
1. Position vector of a point Z exactly midway between two points X and Y with position vectors ##\vec x## and ##\vec y## is ##\vec z =\dfrac{\vec x+\vec y}{2}##.
2. The vector ##\vec {AB} = \vec b-\vec a##.
3. Triangle law of vectors : Three vectors, arranged head to tail making up a triangle, add up to zero. Thus ##\vec a+\vec b+\vec c=0##.
4. Linear indepencence of ##n## vectors : Vectors ##\vec{a}_1, \vec {a}_2, \ldots, \vec {a}_n## are said to be linearly independent (L.I) if ##\Sigma_{i=1}^{i=n} \lambda_i a_i = 0\Rightarrow \lambda_i's=0\;\forall i## .
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Statement of the problem :
I copy and paste the statement of the problem as it appears in the text to the right. Additionally, I prove a statement related to it. [Davis, V.T. (2026). Vectors in Physics, p. 33. Springer]





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Attempt :
I begin by drawing the image of the problem to the right. ABCD is a parallelogram with diagonal BD. Points E and F are midpoints of BC and CD respectively. AE joined meets BD at P and AF joined meets BD at Q. Let the ratio ##\dfrac{\text{BP}}{\text{BD}} = \lambda## and ##\dfrac{\text{AP}}{\text{AE}} = \mu##. I am required to show that ##\boxed{\boldsymbol{\lambda = \dfrac{1}{3}}\quad\left(\text{and}\;\mu=\dfrac{2}{3}\right)}##.

[I could do the problem with ease. It is towards the end, when it comes to the linear independence (L.I.) of vectors that helped me solve it in the first place, that I ran into difficulty. Briefly, the position vectors ##\vec a, \vec b, \vec c## corresponding to the points A, B and C, are not LI, and yet, assuming (wrongly) that they are, helps me get the answer! I furnish the details below.]

Let the position vectors of each point in capitals be given by its equivalent in small letters, with respect to an arbitrary origin chosen anywhere say O. Thus, for instance, the position vector of A is ##\vec a##, etc. Hence, using (1) of the relevant equations (R.E.) above, I find that the position vector of E is ##\vec e = \dfrac{\vec b+\vec c}{2}##. Using (2) from the RE's above, the vector ##\vec{\text{AE}} = \vec e -\vec a = \dfrac{\vec b+\vec c}{2} -\vec a = \dfrac{\vec b+\vec c-2\vec a}{2}##. Thus the vector ##\vec{\text{AP}} = \dfrac{\mu}{2}(\vec b+\vec c-2\vec a)\qquad\mathbf{(1)}##

Likewise, the vector ##\vec{\text{BP}}= \lambda(\vec d-\vec b)\qquad\mathbf{(2)}##.

But since ##\vec{AB}+\vec{BP} = \vec{AP}\Rightarrow \vec b - \vec a + \lambda(\vec d-\vec b)=\dfrac{\mu}{2} (\vec b+\vec c-2\vec a)\qquad\mathbf{(3)}##, upon using (1) and (2) above.

The (position) vectors appearing in (3) are not all independent. Since ABCD is a parallelogram, ##\vec{AB} = \vec{DC}\Rightarrow \vec b-\vec a = \vec c-\vec d\Rightarrow \vec d = \vec a-\vec b+\vec c\qquad\mathbf{(4)}##.

Using (4), (3) simplifies to ##\vec b -\vec a+\lambda(a-2\vec b+\vec c)=\dfrac{\mu}{2}(\vec b+\vec c-2\vec a)\Rightarrow (\lambda-1-\mu)\vec a+(1-2\lambda-\mu/2)\vec b+(\lambda -\mu/2)\vec c=0\qquad\mathbf{(5)}##

If we assume the vectors ##\mathbf{\vec a, \vec b, \vec c}## to be L.I., their coefficients should be zero. Thus ##\lambda-\mu = 1\, , 2\lambda+\mu/2 = 1\; \text{and} \lambda = \mu/2\Rightarrow\mu = 2\lambda##. This yields ##\boxed{\lambda=\dfrac{1}{3}\;\text{and}\;\mu = \dfrac{2}{3}}##, which solves the problem.

The issue : The vectors ##\vec a, \vec b, \vec c## are not L.I. Since the vectors ##\vec a,\vec b## are not parallel, (and they cannot be, or we wouldn't have a parallelogram), a third vector ##\vec c## can be expressed as a linear combination of the two earlier vectors, viz. ##\vec c=\lambda a+\mu b##. Here ##\lambda,\mu\ne 0##, which contradicts the case of linear independence I assumed towards the end.

Request : A resolution of the "paradox" above. Far as I suspect, only two of the three vectors ##\vec a, \vec b, \vec c## can be assumed to be L.I. The point C anywhere and hence its position vector ##\vec c## can be different in each case, depending on where point C is. How do you express the vector ##\vec c## as a linear combination of the two other vectors to further reduce equation (5) above?


Many thanks.
 
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Changes :

The three equations involving the coefficients ##\lambda,\mu##above, assuming linear independence of vectors ##\vec a, \vec b, \vec c## (see equation 5 above), are ##\lambda-\mu=1,\quad 2\lambda+\mu/2=1,\quad \mu=2\lambda##. The last two of these reduce to ##\lambda = 1/3, \mu=2/3##.
But these don't solve the first equation.
The plot thickens, far as I am concerned.
I am beginning to wonder whether I have solved the problem at all, let alone adopt the correct means to do it.
 
brotherbobby said:
The issue : The vectors a→,b→,c→ are not L.I.
Why do you work with the vertex position vectors a,b,c here?

It doesn't matter where the parallelogram is. So just work with the side vectors AB & AC which can be assumed to be linearly independent, when we exclude collapsed parallelograms for which the partition doesn't apply. It also doesn't matter how the parallelogram is oriented, so you can make AB along the x-axis. Since scaling the whole parallelogram uniformly also doesn't matter, you can make AB a unit vector. Now the whole parallelogram is defined by just 2 numbers instead of 6.
 
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$$\vec b -\vec a+\lambda(a-2\vec b+\vec c)=\dfrac{\mu}{2}(\vec b+\vec c-2\vec a)\Rightarrow (\lambda-1-\mu)\vec a+(1-2\lambda-\mu/2)\vec b+(\lambda -\mu/2)\vec c=0\qquad\mathbf{(5)}$$

should be
$$\vec b -\vec a+\lambda(a-2\vec b+\vec c)=\dfrac{\mu}{2}(\vec b+\vec c-2\vec a)\Rightarrow (\lambda-1 \ {\bf\color{red} + }\ \mu)\vec a+(1-2\lambda-\mu/2)\vec b+(\lambda -\mu/2)\vec c=0\qquad\mathbf{(5)}$$

(edit): you have me wondering why you introduce an arbitrary origin instead of picking e.g. point A

(which I am brainwashed to expect to be at the lower left :)
 
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BvU said:
... should be ...
Maybe I'm blind, but your two posted equations look absolutely identical to me.
 
renormalize said:
Maybe I'm blind, but your two posted equations look absolutely identical to me.
Look at the coefficients of the vector ##\vec a## in his two equations. He (@BvU) is right and it was me who was wrong.
It gives me hope that my answers are correct making my second post titled "changes" a second mistake on my part.
Indeed, the diagonal BD and the lines AE and AF trisect each other and the proposal (or theorem) stands valid.

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But what about the bigger point - are vectors ##\vec a,\vec b, \vec c## linearly independent in the first place in order for me to do what I did - namely, put their coefficients to zero? Here's the diagram again showing the vectors.
 
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I choose an arbitrary origin O and draw the relavant vectors ##\vec a, \vec b, \vec c## by hand to the three vertices of the parallelogram A, B and C. Clearly, the vector ##\vec a\nparallel b## and therefore the vector ##\vec c## can be written as a linear combination of them : ##\vec c = m\vec a+n\vec b## where ##m,n\ne 0##. This proves that vectors ##\vec a, \vec b, \vec c##, if anything, are linearly dependent, in contrast to my assumption of linear independence in post #1 above.
 
brotherbobby said:
View attachment 375003
I choose an arbitrary origin O
But why? Does the location and orientation of the whole parallelogram affect the subdivision of the diagonal?

brotherbobby said:
This proves that vectors ##\vec a, \vec b, \vec c##, if anything, are linearly dependent, in contrast to my assumption of linear independence in post #1 above.
Then your assumption is wrong, and you have to find another way to remove the irrelevant degrees of freedom that you have added. Or you leave them out from the start (see post #3).
 
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A.T. said:
But why? Does the location and orientation of the whole parallelogram affect the subdivision of the diagonal?
Of course not. Indeed I could have chosen a point on the parallelogram like A as you suggested. I would do it presently, but first, there's something important to ask you.

A.T. said:
Then your assumption is wrong, and you have to find another way to remove the irrelevant degrees of freedom that you have added. Or you leave them out from the start (see post #3).
Yes, your second option is indeed the one I have in mind, but the first, which was mine, should work too. How do you think should go about it, which would imply expressing the vector ##\vec c## as a linear combination of the vectors ##\vec a, \vec b##, as the (three) vectors are not LI? I would like to hold on to that thought, because there's a bit of a puzzle for me that's going on here.
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I put the image of the figure alongside. The expression connecting the three vectors turn out to be (see @BvU's post #4), ##\small{(\lambda-1 \ {\color{red} \bf + }\ \mu)\vec a+(1-2\lambda-\mu/2)\vec b+(\lambda -\mu/2)\vec c=0\qquad\mathbf{(5)}}##.

Before I can go over to what you raised, this is my doubt - How does the equation (5) above yield the correct answers for the values of ##\lambda,\mu##, upon putting the coefficients of the vectors equal to zero, when the coefficients are not?
 
brotherbobby said:
How does the equation (5) above yield the correct answers for the values of λ,μ, upon putting the coefficients of the vectors equal to zero, when the coefficients are not?
Due to the superfluous degrees of freedom, your equation is underdetermined and thus doesn't have a unique solution. Assuming the coefficients to be zero is eliminating some variables, leading to a unique solution again. So while your justification for that step was wrong, it happens to remove exactly those superfluous degrees of freedom you need to get rid of.

A cleaner way to deal with that underdetermined equation would be: Set one of the vectors to zero (as the location doesn't matter) and assume that the other two (which now are side vectors) are lineary independent.
 
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Hi,

I think you are confusing yourself with this linear independence.
Note that (5) is a vector equation (##=\vec 0##)

Pick any of A, B or C as origin and it turns into e.g ##x\vec a + y \vec c =\vec 0##.
Now independence tells you x=0 and y=0. Two equations in two unknowns (##\lambda## and ##\mu##).

(nitpicking...) relevant equation 3 doesn't seem to be relevant: it doesn't appear

##\ ##
 
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renormalize said:
Maybe I'm blind, but your two posted equations look absolutely identical to me.

Repaired my rusty ##\TeX## : \bf \color{red} works in math mode, \color{red} \bf does not.
 
A.T. said:
So just work with the side vectors AB & AC which can be assumed to be linearly independent, when we exclude collapsed parallelograms for which the partition doesn't apply.
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Attempt :
I attempt the problem making A as the origin, written with (O) in bold above A, in the diagram.



Thus, ##\vec e = \dfrac{\vec b+\vec c}{2}\Rightarrow \vec{AP} = \dfrac{\mu}{2}(\vec b+\vec c)##.
The vector ##\vec {AB} = \vec b## and the vector ##\vec {BP} = \lambda(\vec d-\vec b)##.
Since ##\vec {AB}+\vec {BP} = \vec {AP}##, we have ##\vec b+\lambda(\vec d-\vec b) = \dfrac{\mu}{2}(\vec b+\vec c)##, which simplifies to ##\left(1-\lambda-\dfrac{\mu}{2}\right)\vec b-\dfrac{\mu}{2}\vec c+\lambda\vec d=0\qquad\mathbf{(6)}##.
Given that ABCD is a parallelogram, we must have ##\vec{AB}=\vec {DC}##, from the diagram. Hence ##\vec b = \vec c-\vec d\Rightarrow \vec d = \vec c-\vec b\qquad\mathbf{(7)}##.
Substituting (7) in (6), we get ##\small{\left(1-\lambda-\dfrac{\mu}{2}\right)\vec b-\dfrac{\mu}{2}\vec c+\lambda(\vec c-\vec b)=0\Rightarrow\left(1-2\lambda-\dfrac{\mu}{2}\right)\vec b-\left(\lambda-\dfrac{\mu}{2}\right)\vec c=0}\qquad\mathbf{(8)}##.
Vectors ##\vec b,\vec c## are linearly independent (L.I.), implying that ##\vec b\ne\chi\vec c##. If the two vectors were L.I. and hence parallel, we wouldn't have a parallelogram.
Thus the coefficients of these vectors in (8) vanish, yielding the desired results : ##\boxed{\lambda = \dfrac{1}{3}\;,\; \mu = \dfrac{2}{3}}##
 
brotherbobby said:
I am required to show that ##\boxed{\boldsymbol{\lambda = \dfrac{1}{3}}\quad\left(\text{and}\;\mu=\dfrac{2}{3}\right)}##.
Why is that? The problem is asking you to "show that two lines from one vertex of the parallelogram to the midpoints of the two opposite sides trisect the diagonal."
According to your drawing,
  1. The chosen vertex is A and the two lines from it are AE and AF.
  2. The diagonal is BD.
  3. Trisect means "divide into three equal pieces."
Therefore, the problem is asking you to show that ##~BP = PQ = QD=\lambda=\frac{1}{3}(BD)##.

Besides, the expressions ##\lambda =\frac{1}{3}## and ##\mu=\frac{2}{3}## are meaningless. One-third and two-thirds of what? One might infer from them that ##\mu=2\lambda## which certainly doesn't look to be the case in your drawings if you look at the line segments labeled ##\lambda## and ##\mu.##
 
kuruman said:
One-third and two-thirds of what?

Read the OP again.

brotherbobby said:
Let the ratio ##\dfrac{\text{BP}}{\text{BD}} = \lambda##

It is true that the OP has gone about this problem in a strange way, but your criticisms are invalid.
 
kuruman said:
Why is that? The problem is asking you to "show that two lines from one vertex of the parallelogram to the midpoints of the two opposite sides trisect the diagonal."
According to your drawing,
  1. The chosen vertex is A and the two lines from it are AE and AF.
  2. The diagonal is BD.
  3. Trisect means "divide into three equal pieces."
Therefore, the problem is asking you to show that ##~BP = PQ = QD=\lambda=\frac{1}{3}(BD)##.

Besides, the expressions ##\lambda =\frac{1}{3}## and ##\mu=\frac{2}{3}## are meaningless. One-third and two-thirds of what? One might infer from them that ##\mu=2\lambda## which certainly doesn't look to be the case in your drawings if you look at the line segments labeled ##\lambda## and ##\mu.##
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The symbols ##\lambda## and ##\mu## are fractions. Thus, what I mean is, ##\vec {AP} = \mu \vec{AE}##, for instance, or that ##\vec {BP} = \lambda\vec{BD}##.
I have shown that ##\lambda = 1/3##. You are correct in that I didn't show the same for the rest of the diagonal BD.
However, a similar argument can be made for "the other side" of the diagonal, namely, QD. A ##\lambda## or a ##\chi## taken there and shown to be equal to 1/3 would seal the argument for the diagonal BD.

Likewise, for the line AF, we can again take ##\vec {AQ} = \mu\vec{AF}## and proceed similarly.

Please note that since ##\mu = 2/3##, it follows that PE = (1/3) AE.
 
pbuk said:
It is true that the OP has gone about this problem in a strange way, but your criticisms are invalid.
I agree with the first half of the sentence, but not the second. OP has shown that ##\mu=\frac{2}{3}AE## and that ##\lambda=\frac{1}{3}BD.## OP needs to show that this is a necessary and sufficient condition for the trisection of BD. An easier approach would be to draw diagonal AC and note that it bisects BD at its midpoint.
 
kuruman said:
I agree with the first half of the sentence, but not the second. OP has shown that ##\mu=\frac{2}{3}AE## and that ##\lambda=\frac{1}{3}BD.## OP needs to show that this is a necessary and sufficient condition for the trisection of BD. An easier approach would be to draw diagonal AC and note that it bisects BD at its midpoint.
I am the OP. Please refer to my post #16 above. I will work out the details if you need me to.
 
brotherbobby said:
I am the OP. Please refer to my post #16 above. I will work out the details if you need me to.
Ok, I will do that. Post #16 concludes with the statement
brotherbobby said:
since μ=2/3, it follows that PE = (1/3) AE.
I agree that you have shown that PE = (1/3) AE and that a similar argument yields QF = (1/3) AF.

You have not provided the reasoning that relates these equations to what the problem is asking you to show, namely that $$~BP = PQ = QD=\frac{1}{3}(BD).$$ In my opinion, you have not completed the task.

Hint: Note that the other diagonal, AC, splits BD into two equal segments.