- #176
outandbeyond2004
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If we take the beat frequency from a ringlaser like in the last post and that of a same rl but twice as big, that would be more than three x the fun <wild and insane laughter>.
outandbeyond2004 said:Readers know already that a irf theoretically consist of a rigid lattice of clocks, one at each point of the rf. The problem is, what procedure should the experimentalist follow to ensure that all these clocks are synchronized, especially in the light (pun not intended) of Einstein's conclusion in SR that there is no such thing as universal time? The following paper disucsses this problem and gives two conditions.
http://faculty.luther.edu/~macdonal/Synch.pdf
As far as I can tell, the paper is sound. Still, I would appreciate your reading it for errors.
If an experiment that should be affected by the anisotropy of light propagation is analyzed in SR with irfs set up as prescribed in the paper and yet shows no evidence of anisotropy beyond experimental uncertainity, I would consider it evidence that Martin Miller is wrong, even if we should be yet unable to meet his demand for direct one-way speed of light measurements.
Certainly, if you don't conform to the theory, it is simple to prove it doesn't work. Try the math again using the framework of relativity and see if the results make any sense. Even better, get some experimental evidence and see that the math you did wouldn't fit the data collected in a real experiment.Martin Miller said:This very simple experiment shows that light's one-way speed varies
directly with frame velocity, contrary to Einstein's claim of one-way
invariance, which of course was the basis of SR.
Einstein's relativity does not even enter into the design project of an atomic clock.Martin Miller said:Well, yes, if you use clocks which have been forced by
Einstein's definition to obtain one-way invariance, then,
by George, I agree that you will certainly obtain one-way
invariance, but, as my simple experiment showed, one does
not even need clocks to simply qualitatively compare light's
one-way speed in different frames.
If it is a real experiment, please post the data you have collected.And as for his claim that my experiment is not a "real" one,
which part of it does he think is not real?
This is true in Newtonian physics but not true in Relativity. Which is correct? Do the experiment and find out.Martin Miller said:For simplicity, we let each observer be at his frame's origin.
Given this, anything at any point common to both frames' X axis as
the observers meet in passing will be the same distance from both
observers in terms of each observer's own ruler. In other words, as
the observers meet in passing, the tip of the approaching light ray
must be the same frame distance X from both observers per their own
on-board rulers. (Xa = Xb = X).
Meaning two clocks sitting next to each other in each frame? Unnecessary: for the purpose of the thought experiment, a clock is assumed to have absolute precision and accuracy. For a real experiment, the experiment will be set up so that the clock has at least the required precision and accuracy for showing the phenomenon intended to be measured.WWW said:If we use two groups of clocks (not just two clocks) for the clocks experiment and compare between the average results of each group, can we get better results?
Imagine that each observer's frame has a huge ruler extending along the x axis. You seem to be assuming that just because the two observers agree that the origins of their respective frames (x = x' = 0) are at the same place at the same time, that that somehow implies that they would agree that all points on their rulers (for example, ruler markings x = 10 meters) are simultaneosly coincident. Not true at all!Martin Miller said:For simplicity, we let each observer be at his frame's origin.
Given this, anything at any point common to both frames' X axis as
the observers meet in passing will be the same distance from both
observers in terms of each observer's own ruler. In other words, as
the observers meet in passing, the tip of the approaching light ray
must be the same frame distance X from both observers per their own
on-board rulers. (Xa = Xb = X)
Einstein's experiment and yours are different.Martin Miller said:So even Einstein agrees with me...
Since its your experiment and your claim, why don't you do the derivation instead of just asserting it over and over again?Since you have made the incredible counterclaim that it is
not true in SR, we would all love to see your proof of same,
but you can't produce proof because you are wrong; however,
just out of curiosity, what is your version of SR's version
of the two distances?
Martin Miller said:So even Einstein agrees with me that when two observers meet in passing as a light ray approaches that the tip of the ray is at
the same frame distance X from both observers.
Martin Miller said:But I can easily close this simple case, as follows:
Let Observer A be at the origin of Frame A.
Let Observer B be at the origin of Frame B.
Let these two frames' x axes be parallel.
When these two frames' origins meet in passing,
let an explosive event occur at some point along
these frames' positive x axes. In the context of
SR, this explosion will occur at the same frame
point in both frames, which means that Xa = Xb,
which means that we can simply call this point X
for both frames. Indeed, since this explosive event
left its mark in each frame, the observers in each
frame can easily check where the event occurred after
the fact by looking for the burn marks left behind,
and these marks will be at the same x location in
each frame.
Case closed.