News The Troops = Bad? (surely killing is wrong)

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The discussion centers on the moral implications of supporting military troops, with participants expressing strong views against the glorification of soldiers who kill in war. The original poster questions the ethics of praying for troops who engage in violence, arguing that all killing is wrong and equating soldiers with murderers. Others counter that soldiers often join the military for reasons beyond a desire to kill, such as defense and service to their country, and emphasize the distinction between killing in war and murder. The conversation reveals a deep divide in perspectives on military actions, ethics, and the nature of violence in conflict. Ultimately, the debate highlights the complexities of morality in warfare and the societal attitudes toward those who serve in the military.
  • #91
Cyrus said:
I will give you Donald Rumsfeld's reply to this: "I don't do hypothetical what if's" because arguing speculation serves no point.
I like this one. Shall use it more often.

Cyrus said:
Except I don't watch and post Youtube clips from a guy named AlSaeed (whoever that is) who spliced together stuff from other places and out of context and threw in some background music. I get my information from listening to Congressional hearings and/or government officials: not rehashed information from media outlets, do you? How about next time you not post Youtube videos made by some kid in Egypt and post something of actual credible value.
Wajed you spend most of your time here having a go at media outlets in the western world for being false and giving wrong information, then you go an post a video like this. Where it has blatantly been edited and spliced in such a way that it is extremely biased. You have lost credibility there my friend.

Gokul43201 said:
No. The logical result would be, in this case, that the OP would prefer speaking German, laboring as a slave or being turned in lampshades than going to war with the Germans. There is no logical inconsistency.

Based on sheer logic I have to agree. This person does not under any circumstances advocate killing. A fact stated by himself. So he would clearly rather be speaking German or a labourer.
 
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  • #92
jarednjames said:
but just to clarify, does it say he didn't add it?

regardless, the sound does add to the video if you don't realize it's fake.
I don't know for sure either way, but I'd wager the sound is straight from the camera mic, and the video has been around well before that video Schism was created. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkXu1UVTSzU", it's easier to judge the sound there as it doesn't have any music overlayed.
Cyrus said:
Wajed, you make unfounded complaints about American media which are not true...
Are you claiming our media doesn't whitewash the actions of our troops? One notable examples is the "Barny Song" torture our mainstream media played off as a humorous story, conveniently excluding the fact that it was being blasted at young men in cargo containers while flashing them with a strobe light for upwards of a day at a time if not more, see http://books.google.com/books?id=2h...over&dq=The+men+who+stare+at+goats#PPA121,M1".
Cyrus said:
...and then you post Youtube videos that are cut from various AMERICAN media documentaries taken out of context.
The latter part about the militant Christian camp was from an American documentary, but Wajed's point was in regard to the previous section anyway. And of course documentary footage was out of context, as the video points out explains why it was done directly after showing it.
jarednjames said:
If country A threatens country B with a nuclear strike, the only option to remove the threat may be a decisive pre-emptive strike by country B.
His point being that isn't even close to what happened with Iraq.

Anyway, to address the topic directly; some troops are bad, others are good, you can't rightly judge the whole by the part either way. Many of our troops are dedicated to protecting Iraqis and helping rebuild, others are less selfless and some outright malicious. Some still firmly believe that Iraq was about defending our country from non-existent WMDs, and others are simply trying to make the best of a bad situation.

By the way, as an Army brat who's father served as an officer in the First Gulf War, and as a Marine Sergent in Vietnam before I was born, I some of the statements about our military here come off as heavily romanticised. For instance, if you want to kill people for a living; go talk to a recruiter, they've got programs specifically dedicated to training and deploying such people. On a more general note; while notions like "the few few soldiers who kill innocent people in wars" sound very civilised, how many of our solders were involved in killing innocent people during shock Shock & Awe alone? I can't say I have a reliable figure, but "few few" seems rather a stretch.
 
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  • #93
kyleb said:
Are you claiming our media doesn't whitewash the actions of our troops? One notable examples is the "Barny Song" torture our mainstream media played off as a humorous story, conveniently excluding the fact that it was being blasted at young men in cargo containers while flashing them with a strobe light for upwards of a day at a time if not more, see http://books.google.com/books?id=2h...over&dq=The+men+who+stare+at+goats#PPA121,M1".

Did you not hear about Abu-Ghraib? Guantanamo? The media has a responsiblity to report the news but also not jeopardize the safety of the troops. For the most part, if you watch good sources of news they do report the facts.

The latter part about the militant Christian camp was from an American documentary, but Wajed's point was in regard to the previous section anyway. And of course documentary footage was out of context, as the video points out explains why it was done directly after showing it.

Here we have stuff from an American documentary with ridiculous background music added to it. Wajed said that we don't get the real story in our American media while posting something from an American source. This is hypocritical.

As for the video being taken out of context: (1) It's dishonest and (2) I really don't want to hear excuses for why it was done. It was done, and it was wrong.

On a more general note; while notions like "the few few soldiers who kill innocent people in wars" sound very civilised, how many of our solders were involved in killing innocent people during shock Shock & Awe alone? I can't say I have a reliable figure, but "few few" seems rather a stretch.

This is a blanket statement with no context, nor proof. You make it sound as if the innocent civilians were killed on purpose by the military. For example, why did you fail to mention the fact that the terrorists fight US forces while hiding among civilians to maximize casualties to make the US forces look like 'innocent baby killers'? If you don't have a figure then you shouldn't say anything. When you do have a figure, put it into proper context.
 
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  • #94
Right Wajeb's original statement:
"Please let's be straight forward.. do you mean of "A" & "B" IRAQ and USA? "

You replied with:
kyleb said:
His point being that isn't even close to what happened with Iraq.
After I said that is not what I meant at all.

Now you tell me, where in his original statement above does it give 'his point' or does it give enough detail to extract 'his point'? Does he comment on it? NO. He simply questions do I mean Iraq and USA. Given that I gave two examples to follow my example of when pre-emptive strikes are relevant, it should have been clear I did not mean Iraq USA otherwise I would have used them for simplicity instead of bringing up the other two. But, he did not understand and the fact he asked for clarification before responding is quite responsible (avoiding situations such our past rants over mis-interpretations).
 
  • #95
Cyrus said:
Did you not hear about Abu-Ghraib? Guantanamo?
Sure, but most of the rigorous investigative reporting on those cases I've seen has been from well outside our mainstream media.
Cyrus said:
The media has a responsiblity to report the news but also not jeopardize the safety of the troops.
And how does turning the Barney Song torture into a comedy routine fall into that job?
Cyrus said:
Here we have stuff from an American documentary with ridiculous background music added to it. Wajed said that we don't get the real story in our American media while posting something from an American source. This is hypocritical, dishonest, and nonsense.
Again, Wajed wasn't referencing the part of the video which was taken from the documentry, but rather the part before it.
Cyrus said:
As for the video being taken out of context: (1) It's dishonest and (2) I really don't want to hear excuses for why it was done. It was done, and it was wrong.
I think it serves its intended purpose as a response to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kce...B81ABE96&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3" quite well, and you certainly haven't made a convincing argument to the contrary.
Cyrus said:
This is a blanket statement with no context, nor proof.
It was a question, along with my opinion, and plainly stated as much. Are you not comfortable addressing that question?
Cyrus said:
You make it sound as if the innocent civilians were killed on purpose by the military.
You read that in yourself, but since you mention it, it's not like our troops expected all the bombs to magically miss the innocent civilians.
Cyrus said:
For example, why did you fail to mention the fact that the terrorists fight US forces while hiding among civilians to maximize casualties to make the US forces look like 'innocent baby killers'? If you don't have a figure then you shouldn't say anything. When you do have a figure, put it into proper context.
You are conflating, my comment was in regard to the Shock & Awe campaign when we were toppling Saddam's regime, not hunting terrorists.

Also, I did you come up with the characterization of "innocent baby killers" on your own? I know I didn't say anything of the sort. As for figures, I haven't seen any dedicated to specifically to babies, but http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/reference/press-releases/12/" .
 
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  • #96
jarednjames said:
After I said that is not what I meant at all.
Sure, you replied as I was completing my post, but the point remains that that other examples are abstractions from the topic at hand. Preemptive war is a notable argument against the the absolutist claim that "killing=bad", but doesn't rightly apply in the context of Iraq.
 
  • #97
kyleb said:
Again, Wajed wasn't referencing the part of the video which was taken from the documentry, but rather the part before it.

What? The point myself and Cyrus has made is that Wajeb is complaining about western media twisting facts. And then for him to submit a piece for us to view which, a) is about as twisted as the creator could make it and b) is FROM western media, destroys his argument as he is relying on that which he dislikes and slanders as evidence to back up one of his statements, albeit on another subject, you cannot submit to us a piece of so called 'evidence' from a source you have just had a go at for being biased and twisting.
 
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  • #98
kyleb said:
Sure, you replied as I was completing my post, but the point remains that that other examples are abstractions from the topic at hand. Preemptive war is a notable argument against the the absolutist claim that "killing=bad", but doesn't rightly apply in the context of Iraq.

No, it doesn't. I agree with you there. BUT WHERE DID I SAY IT DID? I'm trying to stay on topic here with the OP. But the discussion got to pre-emptive war, in relation to 'killing=bad', and I was asked where it applies and was asked for an example for which I provided two. At NO POINT did I related it to the USA or Iraq, Wajeb did, and then when Wajeb asked is that what I meant I said no and explained why it does not fit the context, despite being classed as a pre-emptive war by Bush.

http://www.alternativeinsight.com/Pre-emptive_strike.html - I know it has nothing to do with the debate, but it outlines what Bush did as 'pre-emptive war action'.

This thread isn't about the Iraq - USA conflict. So not all posts need to relate to it.
 
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  • #99
jarednjames said:
What? The point myself and Cyrus has made is that Wajeb is complaining about western media twisting facts. And then for him to submit a piece for us to view which, a) is about as twisted as the creator could make it and b) is FROM western media, destroys his argument as he is relying on that which he dislikes and slanders as evidence to back up one of his statements, albeit on another subject, you cannot submit to us a piece of so called 'evidence' from a source you have just had a go at for being biased and twisting.
Where was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkXu1UVTSzU", which is the video Wajeb was referencing included in the video he posted, shown on Western media? And again, I don't see any reason to support your claim that the voice-over is fake, it sounds legit to me.
 
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  • #100
I believe he linked this video which is what we are talking about:
 
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  • #101
jarednjames said:
No, it doesn't. I agree with you there. BUT WHERE DID I SAY IT DID? I'm trying to stay on topic here with the OP. But the discussion got to pre-emptive war, in relation to 'killing=bad', and I was asked where it applies and for an example and I provided one. At NO POINT have I related it to the USA or Iraq, when Wajeb asked is that what I mean I said no and explained why.

This thread isn't about the Iraq - USA conflict. So not all posts need to relate to it.
Sure, but Wajed, responses to you were obviously attempts to persuade you to address the situation of Iraq conflict rather than abstracting to other examples.
 
  • #102
Well I prefer to stick to the thread topic, I will answer other topics within but I don't see why we have to stick with Iraq USA. Why not abstract to other examples? If I'm bringing in more to support my side of things then why should I refrain?

Besides, at that point we were dealing with pre-emptive war, NOT the Iraw-USA conflict. So my examples (seeing as Wajeb asked for them) are perfectly valid.
 
  • #103
jarednjames said:
I believe he linked this video which is what we are talking about:

Right, and his comments along with linking it make it clear he was referencing the portion of the video showing the footage which I linked to an earlier copy of above. You claimed it was from Western media, so again I ask; where was that footage ever presented on Western media?
 
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  • #104
kyleb said:
Right, and his comments along with linking it make it clear he was referencing the portion of the video showing the footage which I linked to an earlier copy of above. You claimed it was from Western media, so again I ask; where was that footage ever presented on Western media?

I don't know what's big deal about that video. US police beats up US civilians every other day.

And, yes western media did cover many tortures stories. It just nonsense to claim that *all* Western media is biased and hides many facts.

P.S. Things went wrong and some troops misconducted, and innocent people lost lives because of troops mistakes or misconduct. It does not mean that US is wrong or US is responsible for all of those things.
 
  • #105
rootX said:
I don't know what's big deal about that video. US police beats up US civilians every other day.

And, yes western media did cover many tortures stories. It just nonsense to claim that *all* Western media is biased and hides many facts.

Exactly right there.
 
  • #106
kyleb said:
Right, and his comments along with linking it make it clear he was referencing the portion of the video showing the footage which I linked to an earlier copy of above. You claimed it was from Western media, so again I ask; where was that footage ever presented on Western media?

Hmm, now this PDF news story shows the News of the World showing the clip (the original people to get it from the whistleblower) and gives a link to it:
http://www.nogw.com/download/2006_br_beating_iq.pdf

There the footage is presented on Western Media, in the News of the World, a big paper in the UK.

Happy?
 
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  • #107
FOR THE FOLLOWING, you can stop reading it at any point..
I`m just saying it all at once so that we don`t get into useles endless questions and answers
..

As for the video being taken out of context: (1) It's dishonest and (2) I really don't want to hear excuses for why it was done. It was done, and it was wrong.
1)I`m not american
2)I wasn`t trying to spread some fake video

concerning the video as a whole, I know that its a reply on some mean christian created some video similar to this one, but on islam... so this guy did this just to show people you can do the samething by using out of context texts and quotes..
concerning the clips..the soldiers one, I thought it was put just to show that if some christians do something bad, that doesn`t mean christianty is bad or all christians are guilty.
concerning the second clip, I just didn`t even talk about it, because It was purely on christianity, not showing soldiers or anything (I ONLY POSTED THE VIDEO TO SHOW THE SOLDIERS..I remember the woman, but nothin to concern me, because the video is primarly related to religional issue which is not the reason I`ve put this video)

what suffices what I said is that I said this:

B) some american soldiers video-ing their friends (you know.. why not have some fun) - forget what the video is all about, the important is the clips in the video, here it is (please, anyone young enough, don`t open these):


I said "clips" because I didn`t watch it this time (due to extremely weak internet connection and so video buffering) all I remember was soldiers and that voice... the woman and these children.. and I thought there was other clips in this vid.








Now let's stop trying to catch each other`s mistakes.. this is not the purpose of the thread..

and for Astronuc, I`m sorry I`ve been somewhat childish at some points. I should have talked to you more respectfully as you are in a place to be more respected.
 
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  • #108
If you read the original news story on that clip, you will see it was shot in secret by a whistleblower, aka someone who wanted to get this sort of thing out to the world to see. And before you say it, it doesn't 'have' to be the camera person shouting that stuff.
 
  • #109
kyleb said:
Sure, but most of the rigorous investigative reporting on those cases I've seen has been from well outside our mainstream media.

Who said one has to get all their information from mainstream media? The point was US media (all US media), not *just* mainstream media.

And how does turning the Barney Song torture into a comedy routine fall into that job?

I have not heard about this, so I won't comment.

Again, Wajed wasn't referencing the part of the video which was taken from the documentry, but rather the part before it.

For one, that entire video is garbage so I don't care what part he was referencing to. He shouldn't have reference it at all - it's crap.

I think it serves its intended purpose as a response to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kce...B81ABE96&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=3" quite well, and you certainly haven't made a convincing argument to the contrary.

If you think YouTube videos made from cut up, out of context, segments with horrible Allah Akbar music in the background is credible enough for you to want me to provide a 'convincing argument to the contrary' then I'm wasting my time here. I would suggest you try a real news source if you want to make a point, not a video from what appears to be a dufus kid in Saudi Arabia on YouTube.

It was a question, along with my opinion, and plainly stated as much. Are you not comfortable addressing that question?

Unsupported statements like the one you made are not allowed here. Back it up with facts or don't post it.

You read that in yourself, but since you mention it, it's not like our troops expected all the bombs to magically miss the innocent civilians.

What's your point, other than to support your unsubstantiated claim? Again, get some FACTS before you post this. Additionally, this isn't even ON POINT for the topic of this thread. Make another thread if you care about this so much. Wrong place, were not going to wander off into a whole other topic.

You are conflating, my comment was in regard to the Shock & Awe campaign when we were toppling Saddam's regime, not hunting terrorists.

The argument I made still applies with the Iraqi troops.

Also, I did you come up with the characterization of "innocent baby killers" on your own? I know I didn't say anything of the sort. As for figures, I haven't seen any dedicated to specifically to babies, but http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/reference/press-releases/12/" .

You have got to be joking me......I wasn't be literal. Again, this isn't even the point of the thread, so why are you posting this link? Could you please stay on topic (for the last time).
 
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  • #110
kyleb said:
Where was http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkXu1UVTSzU", which is the video Wajeb was referencing included in the video he posted, shown on Western media? And again, I don't see any reason to support your claim that the voice-over is fake, it sounds legit to me.

You were saying......?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184600,00.html

(Note the source!)
 
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  • #111
wajed said:
concerning the video as a whole, I know that its a reply on some mean christian created some video similar to this one, but on islam... so this guy did this just to show people you can do the samething by using out of context texts and quotes..
concerning the clips..the soldiers one, I thought it was put just to show that if some christians do something bad, that doesn`t mean christianty is bad or all christians are guilty.
concerning the second clip, I just didn`t even talk about it, because It was purely on christianity, not showing soldiers or anything (I ONLY POSTED THE VIDEO TO SHOW THE SOLDIERS..I remember the woman, but nothin to concern me, because the video is primarly related to religional issue which is not the reason I`ve put this video)

Why are you suddenly talking about Christians being good/bad/guilty? At what point did we change topics?

I said "clips" because I didn`t watch it this time (due to extremely weak internet connection and so video buffering) all I remember was soldiers and that voice... the woman and these children.. and I thought there was other clips in this vid.

Again, if you haven't even watched it, don't bother posting it.

Now let's stop trying to catch each other`s mistakes.. this is not the purpose of the thread..

Then don't make glaring mistakes.

and for Astronuc, I`m sorry I`ve been somewhat childish at some points. I should have talked to you more respectfully as you are in a place to be more respected.

That's the first sensible thing I've heard you say yet.
 
  • #112
Cyrus said:
You were saying......?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184600,00.html

(Note the source!)

Hmm, another mainstream media source with it. You really should do your homework. That's two links before your next response.
 
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  • #113
wajed said:
and for Astronuc, I`m sorry I`ve been somewhat childish at some points. I should have talked to you more respectfully as you are in a place to be more respected.
No problem. I learned about the Hindu Kush and Karakorum when I was very young. I should have taken time to go N. Paksitan in the 1970's, but I was studying in university. I had hoped to visit Afghanistan and Pakistan under very different circumstances. I would like to hike in the mountains and meet the very cool people there. But some crazy people decided to get violent and make both places rather unpleasant.

I still hope to go to Afghanistan and Pakistan, but the purpose would be somewhat different than the one I had 30+ years ago.
 
  • #114
you’re way too picky people!, now the whole western media counts on these links or videos!, you know what is bias here? your opinions are, each one [not all] won’t accept even an idea that their government may be wrong at some points, so pathetic
 
  • #115
drizzle said:
you’re way too picky people!, now the whole western media counts on these links or videos!, you know what is bias here? your opinions are, each one [not all] won’t accept even an idea that their government may be wrong at some points, so pathetic

When did we say that? NEVER. Don't make things up. We have all agreed and stated many times our media over does it with reports and hypes them up for ratings, twisting the facts etc.
 
  • #116
drizzle said:
you’re way too picky people!, now the whole western media counts on these links or videos!, you know what is bias here? your opinions are, each one [not all] won’t accept even an idea that their government may be wrong at some points, so pathetic

:confused:

For one thing, this is not China. There are many people who think their government is wrong all the times and these people don't disappear into air.

!, now the whole western media counts on these links or videos

Now, you want owls to deliver newspapers?
 
  • #117
Astronuc said:
No problem. I learned about the Hindu Kush and Karakorum when I was very young. I should have taken time to go N. Paksitan in the 1970's, but I was studying in university. I had hoped to visit Afghanistan and Pakistan under very different circumstances. I would like to hike in the mountains and meet the very cool people there. But some crazy people decided to get violent and make both places rather unpleasant.

I still hope to go to Afghanistan and Pakistan, but the purpose would be somewhat different than the one I had 30+ years ago.

hey Astronuc, though I don't agree with you in some points [not here], but I must say I have deep respect for you. it's really nice to know people like you :smile:
 
  • #118
drizzle said:
you’re way too picky people!, now the whole western media counts on these links or videos!, you know what is bias here? your opinions are, each one [not all] won’t accept even an idea that their government may be wrong at some points, so pathetic

Thanks for another well thought-out post.
 
  • #119
rootX said:
Now, you want owls to deliver newspapers?

no, pigeons will be fine! sure I didn’t mean that, why do they keep arguing about that one link or two and missing the point?
 
  • #120
drizzle said:
hey Astronuc, though I don't agree with you in some points [not here], but I must say I have deep respect for you. it's really nice to know people like you :smile:
Thank you. Feel free to express disagreement by PM if you like. That goes for anyone else. I could be misinformed - so feel free to correct where I appear to be incorrect.

I had high hopes after the Soviet Union disintegrated, but I also had great concern that the games would continue - and unfortunately they did. There were small windows of opportunity - but too many 'leaders' started beating their chests and too many businessmen started making deals, and now we have new conflicts or resurgence of old conflicts. But now we have more proficient ways to take human life.

What a waste of technology and human life. And for what? For an ideology? For a belief? For the desire to control other peoples lives? To own more than one can possibly use in a lifetime?

I'm currently reading Ahmend Rashid's books "Taliban" and "Descent into Chaos". He pretty much expresses my thoughts and understandings about Afghanistan and Pakistan. But so does Greg Mortenson's "Three Cups of Tea".

I refuse to surrender to darkness of Despair, but look toward the light of Hope - that some day there may be Peace and Prosperity for all.

Salaam - Shalom - Peace
 

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