Arranging Sets of Numbers: From 2 to 5

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the problem of counting all possible arrangements of numbers from sets of increasing size, specifically from 2 to 5 elements. Participants explore the mathematical formulations related to permutations and combinations, seeking a general formula for the total arrangements possible within these sets.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the problem of counting arrangements for sets of numbers, starting with examples of sets containing 2 and 3 elements.
  • Another participant suggests a formula involving permutations, specifically the summation of P(n, k) for k from 1 to n, where P(n, k) represents the number of permutations of size k from a set of size n.
  • A later reply expresses uncertainty about the formula and its components, questioning the underlying mathematics and seeking a simpler method to compute the arrangements.
  • One participant clarifies that P(n, k) denotes permutations and explains how to calculate the total arrangements for a set of size 4 using the formula, ultimately arriving at a numerical result of 64.
  • Another participant notes that if the order of arrangements is unimportant, the total arrangements can be represented as 2^n, referencing the cardinality of the power set and suggesting a different approach by using combinations instead of permutations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriate mathematical approach to the problem, with some focusing on permutations while others suggest combinations. There is no consensus on a single formula or method to compute the arrangements.

Contextual Notes

Participants exhibit varying levels of familiarity with the mathematical concepts involved, leading to some confusion about the notation and the implications of permutations versus combinations. The discussion includes attempts to clarify these concepts without resolving the underlying complexities.

mikesvenson
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lets say I have a set of 2 numbers (1, and 2). I can arrange this set (including all possible amounts of numbers in the set) into 4 arrangements, 1, 2, 12, and 21.

For the set (1, 2, 3), I can arrange 15 different combinations of numbers contained in the set.

What about a set of 4 numbers? (1, 2, 3, 4)
What about a set of 5 numbers? (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

Remeber I wish to count all possible combinations available within the set. e.g, 1, 2, 3, 4, 12, 21, 23, 32, 34, 43, 123, 321, 234, 432, 134, 431, ....1234, 1342, 1243, 4231, 4132, .....

What is the formula for this?
 
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You want:

\sum_{k = 1}^{n} P(n, k) = \sum_{k = 1}^{n} \frac{n!}{(n - k)!}

Maybe a "nicer" formula can be found.
 
Muzza said:
You want:

\sum_{k = 1}^{n} P(n, k) = \sum_{k = 1}^{n} \frac{n!}{(n - k)!}

Maybe a "nicer" formula can be found.

hmm, i hope so, i don't have a clue on the propor why do decifer this formula! What kind of math does that formula fall into? There must be a way to compute it without venturing into this unfamiliar territory!

I don't even know what the P's, n's, and k's stand for!
 
P(n, k) denotes the number of different permuations (make sure you know the difference between permutation and combination) of size k taken from a set of size n. See http://mathforum.org/dr.math/faq/faq.comb.perm.html for a more in-depth explanation. n stands for the number of elements in your set (I should've mentioned that).

Think about how you could calculate the number of "arrangements" that can be formed with elements from the set {1, 2, 3, 4}, without actually listing all of them. First you could count the number of "arrangements" with only 1 number. Then you count the number of "arrangements" with 2 numbers, and so on. Then you add all those numbers. But these "arrangements" are just permutations of size 1, 2, 3, or 4 from a set of size 4, and there's a function that can count these (namely P(n, k)). So the answer is P(4, 1) + P(4, 2) + P(4, 3) + P(4, 4). And as it turns out, P(n, k) is equal to n!/(n - k)!, so the answer is equal to 4!/(4 - 1)! + 4!/(4 - 2)! + 4!/(4 - 3)! + 4!/(4 - 4)!, which can "easily" be evaluated (it's 64).
 
Last edited:
Muzza said:
You want:

\sum_{k = 1}^{n} P(n, k) = \sum_{k = 1}^{n} \frac{n!}{(n - k)!}

Maybe a "nicer" formula can be found.

If the order was unimportant (ie. 12 is the same as 21) and the null set was included, then of course, this is just 2^n (cardinality of the power set), for a set of n elements...which is what you get by changing 'P' to 'C' in Muzza's expression and start summing at k=0.
 

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