News They finally caught Roman Polanski

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The discussion centers on whether Roman Polanski should face jail time for drug-induced statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl, given his plea bargain and subsequent flight from the U.S. Many express concern over the leniency of his plea deal and the implications of his celebrity status in evading justice. There is debate about the differences in legal definitions of rape between the U.S. and Europe, with some arguing that Polanski's actions should still warrant punishment regardless of local laws. The complexities of extradition laws and the potential for Polanski to spend more time fighting extradition than serving a sentence are also highlighted. Ultimately, the consensus is that he must confront the legal consequences of his actions.
  • #31
Hollywood has gone from simply out there to insane:
Miramax studio head Weinstein:
LA Times. said:
In an interview, Weinstein said that people generally misunderstand what happened to Polanski at sentencing. He's not convinced public opinion is running against the filmmaker and dismisses the categorization of Hollywood as amoral. "Hollywood has the best moral compass, because it has compassion," Weinstein said. "We were the people who did the fundraising telethon for the victims of 9/11. We were there for the victims of Katrina and any world catastrophe."
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-polanski1-2009oct01,0,1755914.story
 
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  • #32
Count Iblis said:
Because the Swiss judges will have to look into this. Although extradition from Switzerland to the US seems to be a legal formality, in this case there may be some arguments that may convince the judges not to agree to extradition.
...neither of those two thing have anything to do with your previous quote, which seems to me to be an irrelevant criticism of the US legal system. You seem to be implying that those things play a part in extradition hearings, but you haven't presented any information to imply that that is true - and I don't think it is! You've added more:
1) Polanski's age. In most European countries, age is a relevant factor for sentencing (or getting released on health grounds). In the US you typically don't get a lighter sentence based on age or health. So, if Polanski were likely to get a ten year jail sentence in the US, then given his age, that would be too harsh according to our standards.
Polanski skipped-out on his sentencing. He hasn't been sentenced yet, so how can that be a relevant concern? Are you asserting that in deciding on extradition, the Swiss do/should consider the outcome of prosecution and sentencing? How can they do that without having a trial themselves?
2) Polanski's confession. If this is seen to be unreliable evidence here, then a new prosecution in the US based on that would be seen to be problematic.
Are you asserting that the Swiss would/should base extradition on the predicted direction and outcome of a new trial that there isn't any reason to expect would happen anyway? How does that not sound silly in your head when you think it?
The harsher the rhetoric from the US, the less likely it becomes that Polanski will be extradited.
Yet another throw-away one-liner. This is getting tiresome. You need to explain yourself here: What rhetoric and why would rhetoric outside a courtroom matter inside a courtroom?

Anyway, from what I've seen, very little has been said - rhetorical or otherwise - by US officials. Contrast that with France, where quite a bit of rhetoric has been flowing. The first reaction by the French foreign minister was that the arrest was "a bit sinister". "Sinister"? Really? Arresting a convicted rapist and international fugitive is sinister? The culture minister said he was "thrown to the lions"...well, the culture minister has a primary area of responsibility and it isn't the law, it is entertainment, so his bias should be obvious. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-09-28-polanski_N.htm?obref=obnetwork
Here's a commentary that I think accurately captures the basis of the French rhetoric on this:
At first sight, the reaction of France’s leaders may seem incredible.

After all, anyone in France convicted of a similar offence to the one Polanski committed — which, none of us should forget, is having unlawful sex with a 13-year-old girl — would face very severe punishment.
But for Polanski it is different — and, disturbingly, there are many reasons, both social and historical, to explain the privileged position he has enjoyed since he first arrived as a fugitive from U.S. justice.
The truth is that the French political establishment has never got used to the idea that its own members, les notables, are subject to the same laws as everyone else.
They do not always see the need to pay the same taxes as other mortals; many of them regard the public purse as their own; they believe the details of their private lives are sacrosanct — and if they get into trouble they expect to be protected by the forces of the state.
In this sense, the outrage expressed by Sarkozy and Frederic Mitterrand over Polanski’s arrest can be seen as the instinctive response of the French establishment, who are determined to look after one of their own.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...al-reasons-French-lionise-Roman-Polanski.html

Simply put, it is French snobbery.

And that is in addition to the irrelevant but endless stream of rhetoric from people in the entertainment industry.

That said, the French are now changing their tune:
The French government has dropped its public support for Roman Polanski, saying the 76-year-old director "is neither above nor beneath the law".

The move follows a backlash against a campaign for Polanski's release, with several leading European politicians and cultural figures refusing to join.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8283707.stm

Perhaps after the initial knee-jerk snobbery reaction they are now realizing that -- 'hey wait a minute, why are we defending/harboring a fugitive convicted rapist?' Or the cynic in me might say that they are only bowing to international pressure.
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8721650
That's not the rhetoric from the US you were talking about before, is it? That's rhetoric from France!
 
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  • #33
lisab said:
You've said that several times, in contrast to what others have said. Do you have any documentation for this?
Agreed: Count_Iblis, in light of direct cited evidence to the contrary, you need to substantiate that claim or recind it. What you are arguing appears to be straightforwardly factually wrong: Misinformation.
 
  • #34
My actual take on the situation:

It seems clear to me that there were some improprieties in the handling of the original trial. Note that these improprieties are not necessarily all - or even mostly - against Polanski. Based on the severity of the crime and my perception of the quality of the evidence/testimony against him, it looks to me like he got off unreasonably easy. The misconduct at the end between the judge and the prosecutor may simply be a reflection of concern over the unfairly lenient treatment he got. People (such as that idiotic French culture minister cited earlier) have pointed out that there was a "media circus" surrounding the trial and that it was to Polanski's detriment. Given the public support for Polanski in the entertainment industry today, I'd need to see some evidence of that to believe that he doesn't have it backwards (that the circus benefited him, not hurt him).

Polanski has continued to fight the legal fight almost continuously since he fled. Articles from February of this year talk about his attempts to get the case dismissed. Due to the mess that this case appears to be, I think the fairest thing to do would be to declare a mistrial, throw the first trial in the trash and start over from scratch. But I don't think Polanski would be in favor of that because it would expose him to the possibility of actually being held accountable for the full crimes he committed.
 
  • #35
russ, you really enjoy a good argument huh? :D 90% of threads I see you in you're involved in one somehow.

I like that, good man. haha :D.


I don't see why so much conversation has gone on about extradition though. If the Americans wanted him badly enough he would be in America right now. Extraordinary rendition the American government calls it. Who's going to stop them?
 
  • #36
mheslep said:
Hollywood has gone from simply out there to insane:

Had the victim been, say, Miley Cyrus, and had the perpetrator been some unknown, Hollywood would be screaming for his head on a platter.
 
  • #37
Sorry! said:
russ, you really enjoy a good argument huh? :D 90% of threads I see you in you're involved in one somehow.

I like that, good man. haha :D.
:confused: :confused: The politics forum is where people debate politics. So yeah - I come in here to argue.

Caveat: there is another reason why people come in here: to make speeches.

I'm not big on making unsolicited speeches, so I'd say even more than 90% of what I do in here is arguing. And the amount of posting I do here ebbs and flows with the climate of the forum. When it drifts off into left field is when I feel compelled to come in and push it back toward the center.

And, of course, some issues I care about more than others. This one disgusts me.
I don't see why so much conversation has gone on about extradition though. If the Americans wanted him badly enough he would be in America right now. Extraordinary rendition the American government calls it. Who's going to stop them?
I'm not sure I follow you there: how would the US get him here "right now"? You seem to imply the FBI (or LAPD?) could just go grab him. The US doesn't have the power to arrest people in other countries except in war. Extradition is a legal process that necessarily involves paperwork before the arrest and hearings and challenges afterwards, before the extradition. It isn't necessarily a simple process.
 
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  • #38
Um... Statutory rape IS the CONSENSUAL sex of a minor (past puberty) with non-minor. That's what it is. If it's not consensual then it's just flat out rape. That being said, by the victims testimony, she is clearly describing a rape.
 
  • #39
maverick_starstrider said:
Um... Statutory rape IS the CONSENSUAL sex of a minor (past puberty) with non-minor. That's what it is. If it's not consensual then it's just flat out rape.
Sorry, that's just plain wrong. Rape is by definition not consentual and statutory rape is a type of rape. A subset. Read the dictionary definition and read the legal definition. Both have been discussed already. Here's more:
The criminal offense of statutory rape is committed when an adult sexually penetrates a person who, under the law, is incapable of consenting to sex.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Statutory+Rape

The definition could not be more clear: consentual sex with a minor is not possible because minors are not capable of consent.

Also, pre or post puberty doesn't have anything to do with it, afaik. There is no separate law for sex with a 9 year old that's different for sex with a 13 year old.
That being said, by the victims testimony testimony, she is clearly describing a rape.
Yes, she described violent rape, but he pled guilty only to statutory rape.
 
  • #40
russ_watters said:
:confused: :confused: The politics forum is where people debate politics. So yeah - I come in here to argue.

Caveat: there is another reason why people come in here: to make speeches.

I'm not big on making unsolicited speeches, so I'd say even more than 90% of what I do in here is arguing. And the amount of posting I do here ebbs and flows with the climate of the forum. When it drifts off into left field is when I feel compelled to come in and push it back toward the center.

And, of course, some issues I care about more than others. This one disgusts me. I'm not sure I follow you there: how would the US get him here "right now"? The US doesn't have the power to arrest people in other countries except in war. Extradition is a legal process that necessarily involves paperwork before the arrest and hearings and challenges afterwards, before the extradition. It isn't necessarily a simple process.

Even in the other forums... just an observation it's nothing bad your good at it.

And yeah I know the process of Extradition but America DOES 'kidnap' people and transfer them. There was a big thing about it with the European Council awhile ago actually. This does however mostly have to do with national security lol.
 
  • #41
russ_watters said:
...neither of those two thing have anything to do with your previous quote, which seems to me to be an irrelevant criticism of the US legal system. You seem to be implying that those things play a part in extradition hearings, but you haven't presented any information to imply that that is true - and I don't think it is! You've added more: Polanski skipped-out on his sentencing. He hasn't been sentenced yet, so how can that be a relevant concern? Are you asserting that in deciding on extradition, the Swiss do/should consider the outcome of prosecution and sentencing? How can they do that without having a trial themselves? Are you asserting that the Swiss would/should base extradition on the predicted direction and outcome of a new trial that there isn't any reason to expect would happen anyway? How does that not sound silly in your head when you think it?

Potential sentencing is often taken into consideration when looking at extradition. The extraditing nation looks at what the other country wants the prisoner for, and what potential repercussions to the prisoner there will be, and then considers whether it is consistent with the laws/morals of their nation as well. A prime example is that some nations will not send prisoners to the US without a guarantee they will not be executed
 
  • #42
russ_watters said:
Sorry, that's just plain wrong. Rape is by definition not consentual and statutory rape is a type of rape. A subset. Read the dictionary definition and read the legal definition. Both have been discussed already. Here's more: http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Statutory+Rape

The definition could not be more clear: consentual sex with a minor is not possible because minors are not capable of consent.

Also, pre or post puberty doesn't have anything to do with it, afaik. There is no separate law for sex with a 9 year old that's different for sex with a 13 year old. Yes, she described violent rape, but he pled guilty only to statutory rape.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

First sentence. Consensual in the dictionary sense, as in "I consent". Not in the legal sense that government X has determined you are to immature to participate in political and judicial proceding therefore your opinion is void. I know there's currently a thread raging about this but I've always found the notion of a government body unilaterally convincing people who have had sex below a certain age that they have been victimized to be silly. If you don't feel victimized then who is the government to tell you that you are a helpless victim. And yes. In many countries "child molestation" is a much greater charge and only applicable to "children"
 
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  • #43
Sorry! said:
Even in the other forums... just an observation it's nothing bad your good at it.
If you say so...
And yeah I know the process of Extradition but America DOES 'kidnap' people and transfer them. There was a big thing about it with the European Council awhile ago actually. This does however mostly have to do with national security lol.
I can't imagine the US would just go snatch someone in a European country. Do you have a link to the incident you are talking about? I've never heard of it.
 
  • #44
russ_watters said:
If you say so... I can't imagine the US would just go snatch someone in a European country. Do you have a link to the incident you are talking about? I've never heard of it.

You don't remember that CIA case where they just grabbed someone from Italy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Extradition_and_abduction

Wikipedia has a list of cases of "unilateral" extradition such as it is
 
  • #45
Office_Shredder said:
You don't remember that CIA case where they just grabbed someone from Italy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Extradition_and_abduction
Yeah, I probably heard about that and forgot. Like I said in the previous post: Except in war. Also, though the Italian legal system indicted a bunch of CIA agents over it, they also indicted a bunch of Italian agents and the Italian press calls it a joint operation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam_Rapito_affair
Wikipedia has a list of cases of "unilateral" extradition such as it is
To my point, that's a short list and only 3 on that list can be considered common criminals (and only one of those is by the US, by the DEA, from Mexico), the rest are spies or terrorists or otherwise related to war.

So the idea that someone like the FBI would just go snatch a guy like Polanski from France or Switzerland doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
 
  • #46
russ_watters said:
Yes, she described violent rape

I think we differ when it comes to understanding word "violent".

Is it a term applied for legal reasons, or just an adjective?
 
  • #47
Count Iblis said:
They are alien to most of Europe, certainly in the extreme way there are used in the US.
What is extreme about the manner in which it is used in the US?

edit: I must say that what I read about the lack of 'plea' in european civil law makes much more sense of Kafka's The Trial for me.

pbadss said:
They don't necessarily need to prosecute him for skipping out of the country. They have enough to sentence him for statutory rape, no?
There are statutes of limitation. California has limitations for all crimes with a penalty less than life imprisonment or capital punishment. When a minor is involved the statute of limitations may be suspended until they are of age though I am not sure if that applies outside of civil cases. The fact that he was convicted may or may not effect the statute of limitations as well. In the end it is really easier to add fleeing sentencing to the charges so that the defense will have a harder time requesting dismissal and a harder time arguing to a jury that the crime is too old to punish him for.

maverick_starstrider said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

First sentence. Consensual in the dictionary sense, as in "I consent". Not in the legal sense that government X has determined you are to immature to participate in political and judicial proceding therefore your opinion is void. I know there's currently a thread raging about this but I've always found the notion of a government body unilaterally convincing people who have had sex below a certain age that they have been victimized to be silly. If you don't feel victimized then who is the government to tell you that you are a helpless victim. And yes. In many countries "child molestation" is a much greater charge and only applicable to "children"
Ability to consent is rather important. The line may not be clear agewise but the law cannot afford to leave it to vagaries.

Russ said:
Also, pre or post puberty doesn't have anything to do with it, afaik. There is no separate law for sex with a 9 year old that's different for sex with a 13 year old.
Most places have laws that distinguish by age. Federal is apparently 12 and under for sex with a child as opposed to rape.

Borek said:
I think we differ when it comes to understanding word "violent".

Is it a term applied for legal reasons, or just an adjective?
Generally when a person has committed an act upon another by force or against their will it is considered 'violent'. The law takes a broad view of what is considered violent so that even though a person may not have beat someone and done obvious injury to them during the course of a rape the court may still consider forced penetration an act of violence in and of itself. Unfortunately there will still be the issue of proving that it was forced which is difficult without any evidence of injury. In Polanski's case he apparently qualified under three categories of rape. She was under age, he gave her drugs that reduced her ability to resist or make an informed decision, and he apparently forcibly penetrated her against her will since she said 'no' but she was too intoxicated to put up resistance.
 
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  • #48
lisab said:
You've said that several times, in contrast to what others have said. Do you have any documentation for this?


I'll look into this. In the country I live in, plea bargain doesn't exist and would be a non-starter if it ever were to be proposed. And I don't live in Scandinavia, so msheslep is wrong about his claim that outside of Scandinavia plea bargains do exist.
 
  • #49
Are you asserting that the Swiss would/should base extradition on the predicted direction and outcome of a new trial that there isn't any reason to expect would happen anyway? How does that not sound silly in your head when you think it?


I agree with Office_Shredder:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2374562&postcount=41

The Swiss judges will take into account what Polanski will face in the US and see if that falls within the bounds of what is seen to be reasonable.
 
  • #50
What is extreme about the manner in which it is used in the US?

The big difference between the sentences you can face when you confess or don't confess. Also, the fact that so much bargaining about what to confess on in exchange for lighter sentences can go on at all.
 
  • #51
Borek said:
I think we differ when it comes to understanding word "violent".

Is it a term applied for legal reasons, or just an adjective?
For legal reasons. Legally, physical force, threat of physical force, and drugs are all in the same category.

Even as a loosely applied adjective, though, I would think that it would make sense that using drugs to lower someone's physical and emotional resistance is a form of physical force.
 
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  • #52
maverick_starstrider said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

First sentence. Consensual in the dictionary sense, as in "I consent".
The quote in the wiki article is:
The phrase statutory rape is a term used in some legal jurisdictions to describe consensual sexual relations that occur when one participant is below the age required to legally consent to the behavior.
So it is consentual sex with someone who is legally incapable of consent? That's an obvious logical contradiction that just means they had some trouble explaining the concept. It's like when a dictionary definition uses the word in its own definition. The definition I posted is better because it explains the concept without the contradiction.

Regardless...
Not in the legal sense that government X has determined you are to immature to participate in political and judicial proceding therefore your opinion is void. I know there's currently a thread raging about this but I've always found the notion of a government body unilaterally convincing people who have had sex below a certain age that they have been victimized to be silly. If you don't feel victimized then who is the government to tell you that you are a helpless victim. And yes. In many countries "child molestation" is a much greater charge and only applicable to "children"
Ok, so your objection here really is that you don't like the idea of having a legal definition of "statutory rape" at all. Well fine, but that definition exists and we're discussing reality in this thread. I'm not interested in how this case would go based on how you think the law should work - I'm interested in how this case will go based on how the law does work.

We can discuss why there should/shouldn't be a statutory rape in another thread.
 
  • #53
Count Iblis said:
I agree with Office_Shredder:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2374562&postcount=41

The Swiss judges will take into account what Polanski will face in the US and see if that falls within the bounds of what is seen to be reasonable.
One of the criteria for extradition in the treaty I linked is legal compatibility, which means the countries must have legally compatible laws. A notable example where that doesn't exist is with capital punishment, as Office_Shredder noted. Yes, it does happen that with capital punishment cases, negotiations may be made to ensure that the death penalty is not on the table.

This is not a capital punishment case and both Switzerland and France have compatible laws with the US on rape. So whether Polanski is to get freed on probation or retried for rape and sentenced to 20 years in jail simply isn't relevant to the extradition request/process.
 
  • #54
  • #55
This is not a capital punishment case and both Switzerland and France have compatible laws with the US on rape. So whether Polanski is to get freed on probation or retried for rape and sentenced to 20 years in jail simply isn't relevant to the extradition request/process.

The judge does not purely rule on the law here. If the judge feels that a 20 year's sentence is likely in the US and that 20 years for a 76 year old person for this crime would be way too harsh then the extradition may not go ahead, despite what the law says.

In the US, judges are far more contrained by the law in the way they can rule.
 
  • #56
TheStatutoryApe said:
It seems rather odd to me that in a system of law that requires a trial there are no negotiations to increase the expediency of the trials.
I think it's perceived as altering the impartiality of the judges/trial process if it means that political and financial considerations come into it.

There used to be a 'offences taken into account' in Britain where a criminal would admit to other crimes and the police would make a statement in court emphasising his contrition and asking for a lighter sentence. Naturally this was abused to the point that every house breaker caught would automatically admit to every other unsolved robbery on the police's books and they could report a 100% cleanup rate.
 
  • #57
Borek said:
I think we differ when it comes to understanding word "violent".

Is it a term applied for legal reasons, or just an adjective?

In this particular case, the girl was not a willing participant, hence the rape was a violent act. I believe that it what the poster means.
 
  • #58
Count Iblis said:
I'll look into this. In the country I live in, plea bargain doesn't exist and would be a non-starter if it ever were to be proposed. And I don't live in Scandinavia, so msheslep is wrong about his claim that outside of Scandinavia plea bargains do exist.
That is the third time you've claimed such, and still no backup.
 
  • #59
TheStatutoryApe said:
Generally when a person has committed an act upon another by force or against their will it is considered 'violent'.

russ_watters said:
For legal reasons. Legally, physical force, threat of physical force, and drugs are all in the same category.

Even as a loosely applied adjective, though, I would think that it would make sense that using drugs to lower someone's physical and emotional resistance is a form of physical force.

Galteeth said:
In this particular case, the girl was not a willing participant, hence the rape was a violent act. I believe that it what the poster means.

According to Webster: rape - any act of sexual intercourse that is forced upon a person. What does "violent" change then? Isn't "violent rape" a pleonasm?
 
  • #60
TheStatutoryApe said:
What is extreme about the manner in which it is used in the US?...
Just FYI, I think plea bargains are abused in the US, especially since a relevant supreme court ruling several decades ago. I reject the claim though that plea bargains don't exist in Europe.

Very good background reference:
Tim Lynch said:
Plea bargaining rests on the constitutional fiction that our government does not retaliate against individuals who wish to exercise their right to trial by jury.
That is, the main argument is that plea bargains, when abused, effectively deprive us of our constitutionally guaranteed right to a jury trial.
http://www.cato.org/pubs/regulation/regv26n3/v26n3-7.pdf
 
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