Singing Began in Fish, Perfected by Birds

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the origins of singing in fish and its evolution in songbirds, exploring both scientific research and personal anecdotes related to bird song learning and vocalization in aquatic animals.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference research suggesting that singing originated in lungfish, despite fish generally not being known for impressive singing abilities.
  • Others share personal experiences with pet birds learning to sing, noting the importance of a tutor in the learning process.
  • A participant challenges the claim that all songbirds require a tutor, citing the chaffinch as an example of a bird that can produce a recognizable song without direct teaching.
  • Concerns are raised about the analogy between birdsong and lungfish gulping, with a participant expressing skepticism about the connection.
  • Humorous exchanges occur regarding the idea of a singing contest between fish and birds, along with light-hearted comments about singing underwater.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and disagreement regarding the claims about singing origins and learning processes, with no consensus reached on the accuracy of the statements made about fish and birds.

Contextual Notes

Some claims depend on specific definitions of singing and vocalization, and the discussion includes unresolved questions about the mechanisms of song learning in birds and the evolutionary connections to fish.

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Jan. 16, 2009 -- Fish aren't known for their impressive singing ability, although some can grunt and hum, yet singing originated in lungfish, according to new research that also determined how songbirds consistently produce melodious, sweet tunes...
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/01/16/bird-song-analysis.html
 
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Fish aren't known for their impressive singing ability …

uhh? :blushing:

:biggrin: we invented singing in the bath! :biggrin:​
 
Fish aren't known for their impressive singing ability …

tiny-tim said:
uhh? :blushing:

:biggrin: we invented singing in the bath! :biggrin:​

Hmm, if only PF had a fish and a bird among its members. We could have a contest and see who sings better!

From the article:
Jennifer Viegas said:
Riede, a researcher at the National Center for Voice and Speech, explained that young songbirds also "babble," producing sub-songs, before they create more varied "plastic" songs and then graduate to bird crooning perfection with their adult songs.

"Both babies and songbird chicks need a tutor or they don't pick up the adult version," he added. "Part of that learning is exercising motor patterns."

It's pretty cool to watch a young bird learn to sing. We have pet java rice finches, and one time we bought a young male that learned to sing from our older male. IIRC, it took a few weeks to a month to learn the complete song. Whenever the older bird sang during that period, the younger one would fly over and perch next to him, as if intently studying the master at work.

For a while in there the young bird even tried to sing like the European goldfinches we kept at the time, but it couldn't quite get it right.
 
Redbelly98 said:
Hmm, if only PF had a fish and a bird among its members. We could have a contest and see who sings better!

Are you aquatic? :smile:
 
tiny-tim said:
Are you aquatic? :smile:

Hmmm, no. Could you come up and sit on this tree branch next to me? :biggrin:
 
Redbelly98 said:
Hmmm, no. Could you come up and sit on this tree branch next to me? :biggrin:

my singing is best appreciated …

underwater! :wink:​
 
I'm forever blowing bubbles...
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DwUmamqsZE
 
Riede, a researcher at the National Center for Voice and Speech, explained that young songbirds also "babble," producing sub-songs, before they create more varied "plastic" songs and then graduate to bird crooning perfection with their adult songs.

"Both babies and songbird chicks need a tutor or they don't pick up the adult version," he added. "Part of that learning is exercising motor patterns."

That is not completely true. There are songbirds, such as the chaffinch, whose repertoire is largely inherited. Feedback from other birds still has influence, but even if it was in complete isolation from the beginning of his life, a male chaffinch could produce a song recognized by a female.

I'm also wary of the statement that birdsong is analogous to gulping for air in lungfish. This could or could not have any connection (although the article provides no explanation whatsoever). Will have to check the Journal of Comparative Physiology article when it's out.
 
  • #10
catfish can sound like they're crying when you're skinning them. but i can't say've ever thought of it as anything more than a creepy accident of nature. I've certainly never noticed a catfish in an aquarium doing what i'd consider vocalizing.
 
  • #11
Lame joke alert[/color]

Yes, but there is more than one way to skin a catfish.
 
  • #12
lol, this is true. you might want to start with a hammer...
 

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