Share Page References from Heimskringla for Good Parts

[marcus]

this is a separate thread for sharing page references
in the heimskringla of Snorri
who was a nominally christian Icelander born in 1177

the Heimskringla is a long book with many chapters
one chapter for each of the kings of Norway (or rulers in case
of no norwegian king)

because it is long, it is hard to find the good parts
and this is why one needs a thread to exchange information
about how to find the good parts

by good parts is meant something very special

as when the queen of Sweden had so many suitors who wanted to marry her that she asked them all to gather in a certain church and then burned it down
and then she said "this will teach kinglets not to come wooing me"


also a good part is where the sons of Bue were all sitting side by side on a log waiting to have their heads chopped off and their conversation was remembered in detail

but before that there was the drinking party in Denmark where bue said what he would do when they invaded norway, and then all the others felt they should say what they would do-----these conversations are also recorded in considerable detail

and then there was the time Earl Hakon had to hide in the pigsty

and the time that someone I forget who put the priests off the boat
(the Danish king had given him priests and told him to take them back to norway with him-----he did not put them off the boat right away but
waited until he had a good wind and then dropped them off: this shows Snorri's appreciation of detail)

the thing about Snorri is, in part, that he belongs to an Icelandic tradition of factual storytelling. there were two recognized kinds of Sagas----the fairytale kind where supernatural stuff happens and the factual historical kind where you try to get everything sober and truthful. there are in existence about on the order of 100 historical sagas from several centuries and they corroborate each other

people in that time listened to each other carefully and recounted actions precisely and could tell years afterwards what someone said and did.
Iceland was settled by a small number of families who watched each other and knew quarrels and marriages and lawsuits and stuff, and who had time in the winter to recall and talk about it.

So back in norway they would welcome guests from Iceland and the Icelanders became like historians---even back in Norway, where they used to go a lot---and Snorri was like a specialist in norwegian history

and he lived at a time when people had learned how to write so he wrote the stories down

and a lot of it would probably not interest most of us
especially at the beginning i do not like it because it deals in a somewhat perfunctory way with gods and stuff like that

you have to get into it further on and then it gets convincingly factual
with very little that is supernatural (besides people sometimes having premonitions in their dreams, and well Finns-----Finns, as opposed to normal people, do traffic some in sorcery so you have to watch out for them)

the problem with Heimskringla is that it is a big book. so if anyone reads it they should please post here which chapters have good parts

I own the translation by shucks who is he, his name begins with H.
and he is a really good translator. I will get the book and find out.
this is a book that when you lend it you don't get it back unless you bug the person

 

[Evo]

I own the translation by shucks who is he, his name begins with H.
and he is a really good translator. I will get the book and find out.
this is a book that when you lend it you don't get it back unless you bug the person

Please let me know, I'd like to buy it.

I found this link to the Heimskringla and this is what I have started reading.

marcus, if you have a few minutes, can you look at some of it and let me know if the translation is good or if I should wait for the version you have?

I agree with you that how the original text is translated can make a very big difference.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/

 

[marcus]

Please let me know, I'd like to buy it.

I found this link to the Heimskringla and this is what I have started reading.

marcus, if you have a few minutes, can you look at some of it and let me know if the translation is good or if I should wait for the version you have?

I agree with you that how the original text is translated can make a very big difference.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/

this is interesting, the quality of translation is a secondary issue,

let us share passages
you may not like this one, which is rather gruesome

chapter 46 of
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/trygvason2.html

it comes very near the beginning of that page. that page begins with chapter 44 so you just scroll down one screen or so

 

[arildno]

Well, have a good reading both of you!
Personally, I absolutely adore Snorri's style, and can't really help you picking out "good parts" (since I love all of it!)

If you get through Snorri, you might try Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish historian writing a generation prior to Snorri.
His style is abominable (to say the least), but there's quite a few good parts in between (for example, the original story about Hamlet)

 

[marcus]

Look at chapter 27 and 28

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Heimskringla/trygvason1.html


these chapters are about 60 percent down the page
they are short chapters which both fit on one screen

in this version he does not throw them overboard but
"puts them ashore" at the mouth of a fjord as he prepared
to put out to sea

these are the priests given to Earl Hakon by Bishop Poppo

Earl hakon is always causing trouble.


this Bishop Poppo carried hot irons in his hand which convinced
King Harald of Denmark to be baptized. you see the King was a sensible man and required empirical evidence

for some reason I can't find the story of that proud queen who
took determined means to discourage her suitors

 

[marcus]

there it is, chapter 48 in trygvason2
the story of Sigrid the Haughty
it was one of her guest halls she burned down with the suitors inside,
not a church (as I remembered it)

she comes across as a complex individual

he should not have been courting her in the first place, you understand

she gave him excellent entertainment the first time he came
to visit, but he couldn't make up his mind then and there and had to
go home to think about it----this was fatal

 

[Evo]

there it is, chapter 48 in trygvason2
the story of Sigrid the Haughty
it was one of her guest halls she burned down with the suitors inside,
not a church (as I remembered it)

she comes across as a complex individual

Just a bit.

he should not have been courting her in the first place, you understand

she gave him excellent entertainment the first time he came
to visit, but he couldn't make up his mind then and there and had to
go home to think about it----this was fatal

It's amazing to me what seemed (acceptable?) back then. I read that part earlier today.

I did not find chapter 46 too gruesome. The way the tales are told just depict life (and death) the way it was then. I found the part about Sigurd and his hair to be quite clever.

 

[marcus]

Evo look at this and weep. His profile says he has a masters in fluid mechanics which means I guess an engineer. do I know an american engineer who likes chaucer?

Well, have a good reading both of you!
Personally, I absolutely adore Snorri's style, and can't really help you picking out "good parts" (since I love all of it!)

If you get through Snorri, you might try Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish historian writing a generation prior to Snorri.
His style is abominable (to say the least), but there's quite a few good parts in between (for example, the original story about Hamlet)

No I don't know an american engineer who likes chaucer, not with such zest anyway

the trouble with Earl hakon was he was a womanizer, he was an OK earl except for that.

it was his mistress who put him up in her pigsty when there was that uprising of the farmers (and the king had just come from ireland).


BTW I was wrong about the extent of superstition. Now on re-reading Snorri I see supernatural prescience in dreams and a widespread belief that people (even ordinary, not just Finns) can do sorcery.

so I was wrong, there was more credulity than I remembered. but maybe there is still an idea there

Hollander calls the farmers of the Trondheim district "farmers" and not serfs or bondsmen or peasants etc. I think he got that right. they act like
rather independent freehold farmers. so there are little nuances that differ in the translation but it is not a big deal

I am very glad you found this online Snorri

heimskringla means (world-circle) sort of ...what?
it is the first word in the original, so the book is named after its first word

 

[Evo]

Evo look at this and weep. His profile says he has a masters in fluid mechanics which means I guess an engineer. do I know an american engineer who likes chaucer?

Not to my knowledge, and I know more than my fair share of engineers.

the trouble with Earl hakon was he was a womanizer, he was an OK earl except for that.

it was his mistress who put him up in her pigsty when there was that uprising of the farmers (and the king had just come from ireland).

marcus, I love your commentary on this thread! It has humour and wit. It makes reading the chapters even better!

I love reading chronicles like this. Getting an inside look into the minds of people that lived back then is so fascinating to me.

Your input makes it even better.

 

[marcus]

Your input makes it even better.

not an uncommon experience when sharing a book
your interest got me to fetch that one off the
shelf, and led to considerable pleasure

I'm thinking that a lot of Medieval literature must
be online

eg many icelandic sagas
dante
medieval germans like Walther von der Vogelweide
early secular lyric poets/songwriters like William of Aquitaine
(who was the grandfather of Eleanor---she has a bit more
name-recognition)

people must do this, I mean co-read medieval classics online
for amusement and comment on some kind of
message board

what languages do you read in.
I read a bit of french italian mittelhochdeutsch, but only
in some cases with the help of a pony
that is, I tend to enjoy a passage of Inferno only
after having looked at an english version so I know
what it's about already

 

[marcus]

Well, have a good reading both of you!
Personally, I absolutely adore Snorri's style, and can't really help you picking out "good parts" (since I love all of it!)

If you get through Snorri, you might try Saxo Grammaticus, a Danish historian writing a generation prior to Snorri.
His style is abominable (to say the least), but there's quite a few good parts in between (for example, the original story about Hamlet)

Happy Birthday Arildno
hope you had a good 33rd trip around the sun
(the board says it's Arildno's birthday today)

why don't you join us for some medieval pleasure-reading
which will help to keep everything regular
see Canto V of the inferno, F and P would have been saved
considerable inconvenience if there had been a third member of their book club.

maybe, for all I know, the good thing about Saxo Grammaticus (besides the name) is just what you mentioned: his abominable style

can you find Saxo in english online? will the translator be able to
achieve the proper pitch of abomination

another medieval writer I love is Procopius
does anyone know his Secret History of the empress theodora
hoo wah!

 

[Evo]

your interest got me to fetch that one off the
shelf, and led to considerable pleasure

Who was the author?

I'm thinking that a lot of Medieval literature must
be online

Yes, I'm finding quite a bit online, which is really nice. Now I just wish I had more time to read!

early secular lyric poets/songwriters like William of Aquitaine
(who was the grandfather of Eleanor---she has a bit more
name-recognition)

She was a remarkable woman. Have you read Eleanor of Aquitane & the Four Kings by Amy Kelly?

people must do this, I mean co-read medieval classics online
for amusement and comment on some kind of
message board

I have seen some historical literature review sites, but mainly it was just posting a book review. Hmmm, I should do a search.

what languages do you read in.
I read a bit of french italian mittelhochdeutsch, but only
in some cases with the help of a pony
that is, I tend to enjoy a passage of Inferno only
after having looked at an english version so I know
what it's about already

Only English fluently. I used to be able to read French when I was younger, but due to lack of use, I struggle now.

 

[Evo]

Happy Birthday Arildno
hope you had a good 33rd trip around the sun
(the board says it's Arildno's birthday today)

Happy birthday Arildno!

why don't you join us for some medieval pleasure-reading
which will help to keep everything regular
see Canto V of the inferno, F and P would have been saved
considerable inconvenience if there had been a third member of their book club.

Arildno, you must join in. I am afraid I am bit too lowbrow for someone with the level of knowledge marcus has. Although marcus would never come out and say so.

maybe, for all I know, the good thing about Saxo Grammaticus (besides the name) is just what you mentioned: his abominable style

can you find Saxo in english online? will the translator be able to
achieve the proper pitch of abomination

The same place I found the Heimskringla, the University of Berkeley Online Medieval & Classical Library has it.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/DanishHistory/

another medieval writer I love is Procopius
does anyone know his Secret History of the empress theodora
hoo wah!

Thanks to you, I just found it, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/procop-anec.html at a wonderful site for Medieval and ancient history from Fordham University Center for Medieval Studies.

I'm like a kid in a candy store!

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html

 

[marcus]

the location of our eyebrows is not at issue

you have found a treasure on the web

merely look, if you have not already, at Chapter 9 paragraph 9

Slaves to whom the duty was entrusted would then scatter grains of barley from above into the calyx of this passion flower, whence geese, trained for the purpose, would next pick the grains one by one with their bills and eat.

is it not well-translated? the "whence geese"...

the outrage of procopius is akin to love for the lady
(it reaches that height)

 

[marcus]

I can do without Saxo Grammaticus for the while,
however anyone wanting to see the story of Amleth
the son Gorwendil who feigned madness and took
revenge on his uncle Feng can look in book III
about 3/5 of the way down the page. It continues on
into book IV. Saxo is long-winded

 

[marcus]

Theodora's father was a bear-trainer and her mother was a stage mom.
She herself became a circus-performer and so delighted the Emperor Justinian that he married her.

If she ever did anything bad in the book I am sure it was made up by Procopius, for he had a rabid clerical imagination.

 

[marcus]

has anyone (besides me) been to Ravenna and seen the
largescale portraits of Theodora and Justinian in the Cathedral there?

it is fine mosaic work
Theodora is surrounded by her ladies.
the trained geese are nowhere in sight

 

[Evo]

If she ever did anything bad in the book I am sure it was made up by Procopius, for he had a rabid clerical imagination.

He definitely has a very poor opinion of her. I wonder how much of it is true. Some talented geese. I need to go to sleep, my mind is fried, but it's hard to stop reading.

 

[marcus]

these people built the Agia Sophia----the greatest domed building of its time---justinian's people, theodora's

Procopius was a member of their court, worked for them and knew them personally. And wrote this account of them that has a kind of
surreal authenticity

Oh yes, goodnight Evo. I was just talking to myself (didnt expect you were about)

 

[arildno]

Saxo is long-winded

Long-winded??
That's the worst understatement I've ever heard!
He is tedious, repetitious, fond of saying the same more than once, going about in circles, writing long sentences witout content, paraphrasing himself over and over again..

(I think I just had a saxogrammatical fit here..)

 

[Evo]

He is tedious, repetitious, fond of saying the same more than once, going about in circles, writing long sentences witout content, paraphrasing himself over and over again..

Sounds like me trying to leave a message on an answering machine. I'm terrible.

 

[marcus]

We may have three people.

that would be enough to read an online medieval book

for me the purpose would be to enjoy the frame of mind
of one or more cultural ancestors

somebody just said something about this on the Pagan thread,
I forget his name. he just said that to connect with minds of
people back then you could do various things like go to museums

it is certainly a leisure-time activity! but I feel a need for it.

as for something online that 3 people can share, there is no
simple museum but there are books.

for me, with medieval European minds, it does not matter if they
are nominally christian or non-christian

(William of Aquitaine the first European secular rhyming songwriter
whose lyrics have come down to us, can hardly be called a christian since
be lived most of his life in utter disrepect of everything, or so I think---
he led a crusade once but it was such a complete disaster that he had to escape by boat. I think he lived around 1100 a little before Snorri)

to me the time between Procopius (600?) and Snorri (1200?) is
a good time and the people of that time thought very much as I imagine
Europeans usually think----it was just more obvious.

of course I would welcome being corrected if anybody knows about this.

If Evo and Arildno will stay with this and we can read a online medieval book together----I do not care what it is as long as all three enjoy it----then I think we will find out some things about the frame of mind of these old cultural antecedent people.

 

[Evo]

If Evo and Arildno will stay with this and we can read a online medieval book together----I do not care what it is as long as all three enjoy it----then I think we will find out some things about the frame of mind of these old cultural antecedent people.

I would love that. Marcus, I will let you and Arildno decide on the book. I think both of your insights will add tremendously to my understanding and enjoyment.

Marcus, did you read my post #12? I was wondering who the author was of the book you had.

 

[marcus]

Marcus, did you read my post #12? I was wondering who the author was of the book you had.

Sorry I forgot to reply, I was talking about my Hollander translation of the Heimskringla----after you started reading the online version I went and got it (wasnt sure I had it till then)

the online version seems fine

we really need a third person, more than just two, to make a reading circle
and Arildno may not be available for some reason----we just have to wait.

Now you have read in both my favorite medieval books
I would like to know if you have any preference
otherwise I will think like this: Arildno like all Norwegians has read
Heimskringla since 10 years old so if we want him to be interested we
should think about something else.

Nobody likes old Saxo Grammaticus
You and i have read Chaucer
I really don't know anything else but Procopius
You found him on line.
Of course he's insane---you may find that hard to take.
there is a place where he argues the emperor justinian was a Devil
who took on human shape and he says he used to sneak into the
throneroom when J. thought he was by himself and watch his face
change and horns grow out of his head and fangs appear and disappear.

this was his employer, who hired him to be the official court historian,
and this is what the historian calmly and solemnly reports about him in private.
Not everyone has the taste for procopius.

if we read the Secret History we should make a list of all the bad things
P says about the two of them J + T. and as an exercise, see if you can
adopt a frame of mind where you believe everything on the list.
I think he believed the things he said, or in any case thought them credible.

I hope Arildno will join us----two is heavy/ three is light. one needs it very light to read a book like the Secret History

 

[Evo]

we really need a third person, more than just two, to make a reading circle
and Arildno may not be available for some reason----we just have to wait.

For your sake, a third person would be beneficial. I love ancient and medieval history, but I am afraid that my wacky sense of humor knows no limits and I would need someone else to reign me in.

Now you have read in both my favorite medieval books
I would like to know if you have any preference
otherwise I will think like this: Arildno like all Norwegians has read
Heimskringla since 10 years old so if we want him to be interested we
should think about something else.

I agree.

Nobody likes old Saxo Grammaticus
You and i have read Chaucer
I really don't know anything else but Procopius
You found him on line.
Of course he's insane---you may find that hard to take.
there is a place where he argues the emperor justinian was a Devil
who took on human shape and he says he used to sneak into the
throneroom when J. thought he was by himself and watch his face
change and horns grow out of his head and fangs appear and disappear.

this was his employer, who hired him to be the official court historian,
and this is what the historian calmly and solemnly reports about him in private.
Not everyone has the taste for procopius.

Procopius seems to have a fervent distaste for both Theodora & Justinian in his writings.

if we read the Secret History we should make a list of all the bad things
P says about the two of them J + T. and as an exercise, see if you can
adopt a frame of mind where you believe everything on the list.
I think he believed the things he said, or in any case thought them credible.

I wonder if there was a catalyst for the distaste procopius had for his employer. Was he this condemning of them from the very beginning? Or did his contempt start with Theodora?

Is there some background information on procopius that would help in ascertaining his frame of mind?

I hope Arildno will join us----two is heavy/ three is light. one needs it very light to read a book like the Secret History

I hope that for your sake, Arildno joins in. I alone would not be a worthy contributor.

 

[arildno]

I would like to join in on this thread; I have read a few extracts of Procopius earlier, it was quite an enjoyable treatise..

marcus, I also think the period from approx. the collapse of the Roman West to the High Middle ages is a fascinating time.

It is quite some time since I read Heimskringla, so perhaps it's time to reread it?
I have a vague remembrance of having read Gregor of Tour's "History of the Franks" once; that might be another choice.

Evo, this is just me speculating:
It is well-known that Justinian, stepped into the role as the prime defender/promoter of the Christian faith/strength of the church, perhaps more strongly than rulers before him. (I think this is fairly well attested, not only by Procopius)

Now, as any other man, Justinian would have his foibles&weaknesses. But if he displayed himself to the public as the prime defender of God&moral authority, couldn't a person close by him (like Procopius) easily interpret J as being hypocritical, and hence, over time come to despise him utterly (whatever J "objectively" might have done)?


And to both of you, many thanks for congratulating me on the 14th!

 

[marcus]

Good, we're set.

It's 11 here so I'm going off to bed.
tomorrow we can read some more of the Secret History and
sort procopius out a little.

 

[Evo]

Evo, this is just me speculating:
It is well-known that Justinian, stepped into the role as the prime defender/promoter of the Christian faith/strength of the church, perhaps more strongly than rulers before him. (I think this is fairly well attested, not only by Procopius)

Now, as any other man, Justinian would have his foibles&weaknesses. But if he displayed himself to the public as the prime defender of God&moral authority, couldn't a person close by him (like Procopius) easily interpret J as being hypocritical, and hence, over time come to despise him utterly (whatever J "objectively" might have done)?

Arildno, I am so happy you will be the third. Yes, what you say is very likely. These are the points I am missing right now.

marcus explained who procopius was, but what I have been missing is his mindset in all of this. He obviously holds both T & J in contempt, but as the person hired to chronicle their lives, this seems at odds. Perhaps I should first get more background, a better understanding of procopius, before I read more of what he has to say? Or just more of the history surrounding this event in time?

Goodnight marcus!

 

[Ian]

Marcus,

I've read through some of your posts on the 'Heimskringla'. It is very interesting, but are you sure you know what it is you are reading?

The Heimskringla is a re-writing of the Hebrew scriptures - but put in such a way that the people of that day could understand and also conceal their sacred knowledge.

 

[marcus]

well it has been 16 hours since that was posted and no one
seems to want to pursue it.

Arildno said he read H. a long time back and wouldn't mind rereading, so at least in theory we could be reading and discussing both books I like so much namely both Snorri and Procopius.

Question to Arildno about Heimskringla: As I get back into reading it, I see that all the favorite things I remember come from Olaf Tryg
this is a very entertaining saga with lots of good stories.
Suppose you had to pick just one other King's saga that would also be like that, what would it be?
Arildno please name just one other piece of Heimskringla which could be a favorite because of it's good anecdotes. We can try it out.

I also have forgotten a lot from when I read this book.

Question to Evo about Procopius: I have felt for a long time that P. is so outraged by T. because he adores her. She is very fascinating to a man like him----a celibate priest, a clerical worker, a man of books. she is an erotic dancer, she performs with animals in the circus, she throws wild parties, she has a lot of fun and she completely ignores him but he can't stop thinking of her and so it turns to a furious anger.
Can you imagine this?
Does it seem reasonable to you?
his only possible defense from her charisma is rabid condemnation
(perhaps it is a very common thing that happens, not just in this one situation)

Question to Evo and Arildno: I want to say that the thing about the middleages is that in medieval times the Europeans were just the way they always are, except that it was more obvious then.

I am encouraged by what Arildno said a couple of posts back about the medieval period--- maybe you agree?