Art Share Page References from Heimskringla for Good Parts

[marcus]

No, I'm just good with search engines.

I will take that under consideration.

It is possible you are also good with search engines.

Can you find an original text, in translation, that recounts the Hindu
creation myth
Vishnu is asleep on a cobra floating on an infinite ocean
It is a big cobra so the cobra's head makes a wide comfortable bed for Vishnu to sleep on.
At some point in time a lotus grows out of his navel.
And Brahma sticks his head up out of the lotus and looks around
and decides to create the universe, just for fun.

Brahma creates the universe to delight Vishnu. I think that is a nice reason.
The two of them enjoy the universe for 50 billion years,
which in the Hindu system is called the "Day of Brahma" and also is a unit of time called a "kalpa"

After one kalpa (50 billion years) they uncreate the universe and Brahma climbs back into the lotus and the lotus flower closes and goes back into Vishnu's navel and Vishnu goes back to sleep.

He sleeps for one kalpa (50 billion years). this is called the "Night of Brahma".

Now, an intelligent person will naturally want to know if this is the first time this has happened. does this happen often? or is it just a one-time thing. And if it repeats are we in the first cycle, or what.

And the thoughtful Hindus have answers to these questions.

the Hindu cosmology, that I recounted here, is the only prescientific cosmology with the correct timescale, that I know of.

50 billion years is of the same order of magnitude as the 13.7 billion years that we have as the present age, and of things like the projected life of the sun, and the life of galaxies.

So the Hindu story is better than most in my humble opinion----I think time-perspective is sort of important. Also I like navels.
also I like that Brahma is so small, like a leprechaun, so small he can hide in a flower and it is this small sprite who creates the universe, not the big guy. And I approve highly of the motivation. He does it to give his friend pleasure.

I found this in the Encyclopedia Britannica. I would like an english version of the original

 

[Evo]

Can you find an original text, in translation, that recounts the Hindu creation myth

This is a hard one. Easy to find numerous references to the story, but nothing that looks close to an accurate original translation. I'm still searching.

I did find one reference to this being the ninth time the universe has been created, but there was no reference given that I could verify.

 

[marcus]

This is a hard one. Easy to find numerous references to the story, but nothing that looks close to an accurate original translation. I'm still searching.

I did find one reference to this being the ninth time the universe has been created, but there was no reference given that I could verify.

maybe i should take a turn
it is important that its always fun and never fatiguing
so if your initial search didnt turn anything up, i can take a try

BTW hats off for finding those original bigfoot people
I have never read any Pliny, just heard the name

 

[marcus]

BTW I just spoke to an Indian anthropologist woman
who says there are several Hindu creation myths
(this one she knows very well but she says there are others)
one involves an egg
but there is an even better one that says the universe
was churned into being by a turtle

just like when you churn cream it coagulates into butter
so that the butter comes into being by churning

well there was the infinite ocean again( that we saw before)
and there was no quarks and leptons in other words
no form or matter or anything, which the turtle felt was a deficiency
so churned and churned
and Existence coagulated like butter
and some say that a snake was involved too but I don't know how

this appeals to me because it seems very likely that leptons
are produced by churning, and possibly also quarks, and then
protons and neutrons are made by the quarks coallescing, just like
butter, and atoms and so on.

But I like the business with the lotus sprouting from his navel.

My friend has seen that represented in indian art at the Asian Art museum
in San Francisco, so we in some sense have a contemporary "document"
only it is sculptured bas relief and not a piece of writing

You say you found online paraphrases----could you give some links

 

[Evo]

and some say that a snake was involved too but I don't know how

Here is one I found with the snake, actually a whole bunch of snakes.

The laksmi creation story starts with Brahma telling the Asuras and Devas to churn the ocean of milk. The Asuras and Devas were looking for soma, or immortallity. Anxious the two groups go and ask Ananta a serpent to turn Mt. Mandara into a ocean of milk. They then use another serpent to churn the ocean, Vasukii. After churning for some time they grew tired and bored, but then Vishnu comes and erges them not to quit. After some time a beautiful God appears, Laksmi. However this is not what they wanted so they kept churning the ocean until a black sludge appears. Then a thousand poisinous snakes come out of the sludge. The poison turns blue and Shiva comes and swollows this poison. Shiva holds this poison in his throught and the poison turns his throught blue. After Shiva purifies the ocean Dhanvantari appears. He is the physician of the gods and he holds the soma in a container called fillasha. This story goes on and on, but in the end the devas drink and become immortal.

http://www.msu.edu/user/murphy16/

this appeals to me because it seems very likely that leptons
are produced by churning, and possibly also quarks, and then
protons and neutrons are made by the quarks coallescing, just like
butter, and atoms and so on.

You can be so funny.

You say you found online paraphrases----could you give some links

I found a bunch, but I only saved a few links.

Here are some that seemed to be good resources.

http://www.archaeolink.com/creation_myths_religious_anthrop.htm

http://www.crab.rutgers.edu/~goertzel/creationmyths.htm

Here's one with the turtle.

http://www.ignca.nic.in/ps_05014.htm

 

[marcus]

Dear evo, I went looking for the Hindu myths of creation and
found that Hinduism is a dreadful mess
they need a good editor

it is a dismal task to find anything
at least in the old testament bible of the Israelites there is linear order
and one can find where the Genesis is because it comes at the beginning!

at least in the great book of the Westerners which is called
the encyclopedia Britannica there is alphabetical order
and one may look for navel under N and lotus under L

but in Hinduism there is no order, none of any kind!
It is quite slovenly and disreputable.

 

[marcus]

I did learn that the serpent on which Vishnu is sleeping is
called Sheshnaag

the lotus that grows from his navel has a special name too
but I forget what it is----perhaps it is Kamala or perhaps Padma

 

[marcus]

I think we just have to give up on Hindu creation myths, now i am sorry
I got you into such a difficult and unrewarding search in such a
bramble-patch

the thing is, they always want to sell you stuff.

they tell you summaries and they say yes yes it is all in the
Vishnu Purana translated by Horace H Wilson in 1865, or some
business like that, but it is not on line!

And one cannot be sure that is really is where they say because
of a certain vagueness that comes of too much sophisticated spirituality for too many centuries where they have been looking at all these things
as "symbolic" of contemplative states of mind and not taking them literally as stories in a hard-edge way and i say bleeegh and blaaaghhh to that.

the book of genesis is crisply told by comparison.

Maybe Salman Rushdie has retold these creation myths in good prose style. that would then be quite agreeable!

one has to really believe that the turtle really did churn the infinite ocean of milk

I am sure you agree, I am just saying it to make it revoltingly explicit, as is the custom

 

[Evo]

I was very surprised at how Hindu Myths were so inconsistent and no one seems to think it important to find an original authoritative source. This has been an interesting excersize, to say the least.

I have found that the only consistency is the inconsistency. Everything appears to have different names. The snake that Vishnu (who himself has 1,000 names)reposes on is called by many names, for example - Shesanaga, Shesha Nag, Sheshnaga, Ananta, Anantasesh, Sesha, etc...

In Hindu myth, nagas are a primeval race of divine serpent-people that play an important part in religion.

I have always been partial to the turtle story though.

I've also found the same sources for the translation of the Puranas. Nothing complete is available online.

I did find this tale which I thought you might enjoy.

Takshak : This king of Nagas was responsible for ending the life of king Pariksh it, the descendant of Pandavas. Pariksh it once insulted a great sage while he was engrossed in meditation. The sage's son cursed Pariksh it by saying that he will die of a snake bite. Pariksh it was so scared that he built his palace on a single pillar surrounded by water. He believed that he was safe as no snake could crawl through the water. Takshak had to take up the challenge to honour the sage's words. He shrunk his body and hid in an apple. When Pariksh it was about to eat the apple, he sprang out to his original shape and bit the king. The king's son, Janamejay, was so angry that he performed a huge snake sacrifice. His priests chanted powerful mantras which made all snakes fall into the sacrificial fire. Takshak sought Lord Indra's help. But the mantras were so powerful that both Takshak and Indra began to fall into the fire. Then Astik, a wise sage, intervened and stopped the sacrifice before all snakes were annihilated.

Also, a bit of background on the Naga Shesha.

Shesha: This enormous thousand-headed snake bears the Earth on his head. Traditionally, it was believed that earthquakes were caused whenever the snake moved. Shesha floats on the cosmic ocean and Lord Vishnu reclines on the coil of his tail. This Naga survives even when the entire universe is destroyed. Hence, it is also called Ananta (eternal). Shesha accompanies Lord Vishnu in every incarnation.

Thus, when Vishnu appeared in his seventh incarnation as Rama, Shesha was born as his brother Lakshman. However, before their next incarnation, Shesha complained to Vishnu that he was tired of being his younger brother and always having to obey him. So Lord Vishnu suggested that he be his elder brother in their next incarnation so that Lord Vishnu will have to obey him. Thus Shesha was born as Balaram while Vishnu appeared as Krishna during their eighth incarnation.

http://festival.indiatimes.com/articleshow/-1669016349.cms

edit - too funny, the automatic online PF censor deleted the last part of the name p a r a k s h i t, so I had to divide the name.

 

[marcus]

I've been enjoying your recent posts on Hindu legend a lot.
I could listen to some more of these stories
or, if you want to change
I would be interested if you would propose something we could
read (and give me the link so i can find it)

you some times say "you or Arildno pick something"
but you could take a turn

 

[Evo]

I've been enjoying your recent posts on Hindu legend a lot.
I could listen to some more of these stories
or, if you want to change
I would be interested if you would propose something we could
read (and give me the link so i can find it)

you some times say "you or Arildno pick something"
but you could take a turn

I'd love to find something. You may be sorry though, I do have a very warped sense of what is interesting.

 

[marcus]

I'd love to find something. You may be sorry though, I do have a very warped sense of what is interesting.

I'll take a chance
warp away

 

[marcus]

I'm enjoying the sporadic booktalk so if you don't target some
passage or other soon (and give a link) I will eventually suggest something.

BTW you must have found a link for procopius and I would actually like to look at the same version----especially if it is not a long PDF download---as a refresher.
Ive forgotten many an outrageous chapter of the Secret History.

so give me the link you found, if you wish


were you ever in florence, if so you know San Miniato del Monte up on a hill across the Arno from the main part of the city
there is a nice story about when some medieval Germans stole the bones.

 

[Evo]

BTW you must have found a link for procopius and I would actually like to look at the same version----especially if it is not a long PDF download---as a refresher.
Ive forgotten many an outrageous chapter of the Secret History.

so give me the link you found, if you wish

I will post that tomorrow. I'd love to discuss it with you.

I have been crying my eyes out watching the BBC/AE movies of "Lorna Doone" & "Pride & Prejudice" for the 100th time tonight. I love historic pieces.

My daughter will not watch the BBC/AE version of "Lorna Doone" since we watched the 1922 silent movie version of it together a couple of years ago. She prefers the 1922 version. :(

I've found watching movies of the classics with a teenager much easier than reading together. We can devote 2 hours of time with no problem. Sometimes she prefers to read the books.

Sorry, off topic, but that's what has been keeping me tied up.

were you ever in florence, if so you know San Miniato del Monte up on a hill across the Arno from the main part of the city
there is a nice story about when some medieval Germans stole the bones.

I've been to Italy a few times, but never there. What is the story of the bones?

 

[marcus]

Jennifer Ehle, Colin firth, Crispin Bonham-Carter
and who ever did Mrs. Bennet was wonderful (and mr. bennet too)

but also the Emma thompson version of Sense and Sensibility
has some wonderful scenes and holds up very well
(Hugh Grant does a good job with one of the roles)

You indicated, I think, that you had never read Babette's'
feast, there is a Danish film made from Isaak Dinesen's story
of that name

I identify with several characters in the film of
Babette's feast----had better let you guess if you ever rent the
video of it, rather than say. It is available with the original soundtrack
and English subtitles which is probably better than dubbed into english
in this case as the actors have finely fitting voices to their roles.

 

[Evo]

Sorry, I have been too busy to read much the last few days. I have checked into Babette's feast and have read so many wonderful reviews of it that I plan to get it before the end of the month.

So marcus, you've seen the Pride & Prejudice with Colin Firth? I think he was splendid as Mr Darcy. I checked the credits on my DVD, but I cannot tell who Mr & Mrs Bennett were played by. The actress that played Mrs Bennett was superb.

Ok, let me do some reading and I will post again in a bit.

 

[marcus]

Ok, let me do some reading and I will post again in a bit.

sure, at your convenience and pleasure

Mrs. Bennet was played by Alison Steadman

here is a complete cast listing:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112130/

BTW I was highly entertained by Holly's Supper thread---though did not read all. and by some other PF threads, can't recall which right now.

I recently saw posted a link to the complete movie script for a movie I like called "As good as it gets"

http://www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/10272177763f326892cd160.html

I was thinking about teenage daughters and how they acquire the habit of reading good literature. (you know my notion of "good" literature----paragons like Jane Austen, Snorri, Procopius, Isaak Dinesen, herodotus there must be some pattern here. some smilie is needed, but which, maybe the eye-rolling one)

By the way did you like the English Patient?

I wonder if the movie script for it is on-line.

You see a teenager who loved the movie English Patient might have an easier time reading the movie script for it than the Michael Ondaatje novel.
Sometimes novels are a great bore. And with the script it meshes immediately with one's visual memory, and it is like reading a play.

I used to love to read plays when i was early teens.

Your reading with me (which I do enjoy) is obviously of less importance than reading with your daughter. Mother and daughter should be able to share certain novels or plays. what novels or plays do you both like?
I mean besides Pride and Prejudice?

the Emma thompson Sense and Sensibility is terrific----if anything better cinema than P and P.

well I will leave it there for the time being. post when you have time and feel like it

 

[marcus]

Alfonso the Wise, King of Castille and Leon

More people should know the poetry and stories of the european middleages

and in particular should know about Alfonso X, called the Wise (1221-1284)

he wrote his poems---the Cantigas---in Galician-Portuguese which was the language that all poets and troubadours preferred, in the iberian peninsula, at that time (except the Catalonians who are always different)

here is a link that tells about this and has further links to entertaining short poems in Galician Portuguese from the 1200s, translated into english by a clever translator named Zenith.

http://portugal.poetryinternational.org/cwolk/view/23086

 

[pace]

Are you finished reading Heimskringla and stuff?

I somehow wanted to read more of this after I did some philosophy studying. I've got Heimkringla, younger and older Edda(in their' original language, unbelivably cool!), and some sagas eg Egil(the dude who went over to a guy when he was 5 to chop the other guys head off because he was insulting(It's quite early in the book.)

 

[marcus]

I would like to discuss Egil saga with you.
I believe he was an exceptional man which we should all admire and look up to.

Also one time at a feast there was a man that Egil didnt like so
he drank a lot of whey and went and stood by the man's chair and
puked on him for quite a long time.
the man was so shocked and outraged that he couldn't move to get
out of the way.


Egil had an unusually thick skull which was one reason he was so good in fights. They would always try to split each others skulls with an ax
because it was the most satisfying way to get the job done
but Egil's skull didn't split easily.

the saga of Egil is highly factual-----200 years after he lived they actually found his skull beside a church and it was in fact thick just as the story says---so there's proof if anyone is skeptical!

also the Egil Saga is a great literary masterpiece the equal of Njal Saga
but thankfully much much shorter!

we should all read it several times

 

[pace]

Ah, the good old days!

I've got Egil, Gunnlaugs, Kormaks, and Lakdøla sagas on my shelf. Easily borrow more from the library if I wanted.
I also managed to read 1/3 of the Heimskringla once, but I were too young and it went too slow for me.

 

[marcus]

Ah, the good old days!

I've got Egil, Gunnlaugs, Kormaks, and Lakdøla sagas on my shelf. Easily borrow more from the library if I wanted.
I also managed to read 1/3 of the Heimskringla once, but I were too young and it went too slow for me.

When I looked back at heimskringla a few weeks ago I realized somewhat to my surprise that all the parts I like were in Olaf Trygvason Saga. So I would have to admit that the book is too long

I would be happy to look again at Egil
I have not handled the book for years and I know it has some good parts that I would like to read again. I just fetched my copy and will keep it by the computer in case you tell me about some part.
I have the Penguin Classics edition translated by Palsson and Edwards.

Do you think Egil is online?

Just to keep up with you---you mentioned the little argument Egil had over a ball-game when he was 6 years or so. In my edition that is chapter 40
and the interesting thing is that his father Skallagrim was not happy with what he did but his mother was glad and said "He has the makings of a Viking, when he is older you must give him a ship."

so then Egil (who was precocious as a poet) made up a verse

My mother wants a price paid
To buy my proud-oared ship.
Standing high in the stern
I'll scour for plunder...

-------------
pace, this is pretty good, even in English translation, and rings true for what we know of him and what he became. His verses were not as boring as many of his contemporaries.

 

[Evo]

Egil's Saga

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/

I had started reading the Laxdaela Saga last month, but got too busy. Are either of you familiar with it? Is it worth the read. It's unusual because it is from a woman's perspective.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

 

[marcus]

Egil's Saga

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/egil/

I had started reading the Laxdaela Saga last month, but got too busy. Are either of you familiar with it? Is it worth the read. It's unusual because it is from a woman's perspective.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

No kidding! Tell a little about it. Is she the narrator or a major character or what

 

[marcus]

Evo I'd like to hear your perspective on the book.
Pretend you have to sell me on the idea of reading it.'
I already like the idea that it is about a icelander woman
I think the women were very important in shaping the mind of those
poeple and one reason that have good stories and'
so that is unusual. If what you say is right it is'
from a womans viewpoint abnd that is extemely interesting because
a way into her mind
but is it boring. a lot of old books are.
what has it got going for it. I want to hear this from you evo
and not have to look first myself
(appropriate smiley whatever that is)

 

[Evo]

Since I have only just begun to read it, I am going to cheat and piece together some information and reviews to entice you.

Laxdaela is an Icelandic saga that takes place in the years 850-1100. What makes Laxdaela saga different from other Icelandic sagas is that a woman plays the main role.

Originally written in Icelandic (Old Norse) sometime around the year 1245 A.D. The author is unknown, although some scholars contend that the author was probably a woman.

The LAXDAELA SAGA is one of the best of the sagas, ranking with THE BURNT NJAL SAGA as one of the greatest works to come from the Viking world -- and the greatest literary works of the 12th-14th centuries from anywhere. Its numerous cast of characters (I count 189 names in the book's helpful Glossary of Proper Names, about 40 of which begin with "Thor") boggles the mind. Just remember, these were real people, and their names are enshrined in the history of Iceland by their descendents.

It takes several generations of ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces, and even the introduction of Christianity around A.D. 1000 before the main story gets under way, namely the story of Gudrun Osvifs-daughter and her four marriages. This is no blushing romance: Look at Gudrun the wrong way, and start drafting your will! Her boyfriend Kjartan Olafsson dallies too long in Norway, and she marries his cousin Bolli out of spite. Then, when he returns, she does everything she can to urge Bolli to kill him and his men. A series of internecine feuds breaks out, and it takes more than twenty years for the bad blood to be drained off.

Life was cheap in medieval Iceland. The anonymous author of this saga was, however, a great writer who identified closely with the people and events that went into the making of this sometimes barbaric, always awe-inspiring masterpiece.

Links to the above in order

http://www.fva.is/~harpa/forn/english/e_laxd/e_laxd.html

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

 

[marcus]

It takes several generations of ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces, and even the introduction of Christianity around A.D. 1000 before the main story gets under way, namely the story of Gudrun Osvifs-daughter and her four marriages. This is no blushing romance: Look at Gudrun the wrong way, and start drafting your will! Her boyfriend Kjartan Olafsson dallies too long in Norway, and she marries his cousin Bolli out of spite. Then, when he returns, she does everything she can to urge Bolli to kill him and his men. A series of internecine feuds breaks out, and it takes more than twenty years for the bad blood to be drained off.

http://www.fva.is/~harpa/forn/english/e_laxd/e_laxd.html

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/OMACL/Laxdaela/

this is good: ambushes, conniving marriages and bloody divorces,
the ABC of Icelandic life . This buildup carries conviction and persuades me to read the book.


nice style, regardless of whether you penned it or chose it to copy

 

[Evo]

I've enjoyed the little that I've read so far. I'd really like to know how Thorunn the Horned got her name. I love the descriptive names Thorolf "Bladder-skull" ?? I would enjoy just hearing the stories behind the names.

 

[marcus]

Evo by coincidence Pace and I were just talking about Egil Skallagrim's son who was an excellent poet even from a young age
and it turns out that Egil is a character in the Laxdale Saga
and he and his daughter appear in Chapter XXII----for it is Egil's daughter Thorgerd that Olaf Peacock marries around year 960. Here are Olaf and his father talking:

-----exerpts from Laxdale chapters 22 and 23-----

When Olaf had been in Iceland a month, and spring came on, father and son took counsel together. "I will, Olaf," said Hoskuld, "that a match should be sought for you,... There is a man named Egil. He is Skallagrim's son. He lives at Borg, in Borgarfjord. This Egil has a daughter who is called Thorgerd, and she is the woman I have made up my mind to woo on your behalf,...

...It is told how one day the father and son, Hoskuld and Olaf, went forth from their booth to find Egil. Egil greeted them well,... Hoskuld now broaches the wooing on behalf of Olaf, and asks for the hand of Thorgerd. She was also at the Thing. Egil took the matter well,...

...Hoskuld said, "I wish, Egil, that you would talk this over with your daughter."

Egil said that that should be done. Egil now went away to find his daughter, and they talked together: "There is here a man named Olaf, who is Hoskuld's son, and he is now one of the most renowned of men. Hoskuld, his father, has broached a wooing on behalf of Olaf, and has sued for your hand; and I have left that matter mostly for you to deal with. Now I want to know your answer. But it seems to me that it behoves you to give a good answer to such a matter, for this match is a noble one."

Thorgerd answered, "I have often heard you say that you love me best of all your children, but now it seems to me you make that a falsehood if you wish me to marry the son of a bondswoman, however goodly and great a dandy he may be,"...

...Hoskuld bade him have his own way. Olaf now dressed himself in this way, that he had on the scarlet clothes King Harald had given him, and a golden helmet on his head, and the gold-adorned sword in his hand that King Myrkjartan had given him. Then Hoskuld and Olaf went to Egil's booth. Hoskuld went first, and Olaf followed close on his heels. Egil greeted him well, and Hoskuld sat down by him, but Olaf stood up and looked about him. He saw a woman sitting on the dais in the booth, she was goodly and had the looks of one of high degree, and very well dressed. He thought to himself this must be Thorgerd, Egil's daughter. Olaf went up to the dais and sat down by her. Thorgerd greeted the man, and asked who he was. Olaf told his own and his father's name, and "You must think it very bold that the son of a slave should dare to sit down by you and presume to talk to you!"

She said, "You cannot but mean that you must be thinking you have done deeds of greater daring than that of talking to women."

Then they began to talk together, and they talked all day. But nobody heard their conversation...

-------end exerpt, chapters 22 and 23 of Laxdale---

So look a connection between Egil saga and Laxdale! these are real people and often real events and even some the actual things they said were thought interesting enough by our fellow humans, these Island people, to be remembered.

One small detail. the storyteller makes a point of telling us that "Egil greeted them well..." and "Egil took the matter well..." especially I think because Egil had a lot of attitude and was sometimes witty at the wrong moment. So the listeners, who know Egil's manners from other stories must be assured that this time everything went smoothly. Or so I think.

It might be interesting to browse through both these sagas and see if any other common characters or events show up

 

[Evo]

How wonderful that the two sagas overlap! That should help flesh out the stories. I will definitely add Egil's Saga to my reading.

The stories are so wild that it is hard to believe that they really happened (for the most part) and the people are real. I love immersing myself into these "other worlds". You had to have your wits about you back then.

I am thoroughly enjoying this.