The Role of Open Forums in Scientific Research

[quantumdude]

"Outside the Mainstream" Forum

To the members of the PF community,

As the next step in the growth of Physics Forums, we are updating our policy concerning the development of personal theories at this website. We will be creating a new, moderated Forum entitled Outside the Mainstream, wherein such theories can be submitted for approval by the Staff and Science Advisors of Physics Forums. We will implement this new policy in such a way as to be of maximum benefit first to Physics Forums and second to you, the theorist. The policy change will take effect on July 15, 2005, and the new Forum will be a Subforum of Scepticism and Debunking.

To guarantee that the scientific and academic integrity of Physics Forums is not compromised we will only accept independent research that conforms to strict guidelines, which will be posted at the top of the new Forum.

To guarantee sufficient latitude to the independent theorist guidelines will not be imposed as to the probable truth or falsity of the submitted theory. Rather, the guidelines will be constraints on methodology and format.

As a consequence of this upgrade, all non mainstream posts and threads that were formerly moved to Theory Development will henceforth be deleted. If your post or thread is deleted under this policy you will receive a Private Message indicating such, and you will be invited to resubmit to the new Outside the Mainstream Forum, according to the guidelines of that Forum. All submissions will be sent to a moderation queue, where they will be discussed by the Staff and Science Advisors. We will notify you with a decision within 7 days. If your submission is rejected, you will be told the reason, and you will be given one opportunity to resubmit.

We believe that this new feature will serve as the next step in PF's upward development, and that it will be enjoyable for our most original, creative members.

The following new Theory Development Guidelines will be posted at the top of the new Forum and will Take Effect July 15, 2005

1. The opening post must contain an abstract stating the results obtained and how the new theory is at variance with currently accepted theories.

2. If an independently researched theory makes claims different from those made by currently accepted theories then the opening post must contain a section that either cites experiments that have been done that decide between the new and old theories, or it must propose experiments that could be done to decide between the two.

3. If an independently researched theory is experimentally indistinguishable from a currently accepted theory then the opening post must contain a section that clearly explains the conceptual differences between the two, and what if anything is to be gained from the new perspective.

4. All references to relevant prior work must be documented in the opening post.

5. Quantitative predictions must be derived, wherever appropriate.

6. New theories must not be already strongly inconsistent with the results of prior experiments.

7. If a new theory is strongly inconsistent with prior experiments, but the theorist is insisting that the experiments were either misconducted or misinterpreted by the scientific community, then the thread will be rejected. Instead the theorist should rebut the contradicting scientists in an appropriate journal.

8. Theories containing obvious mathematical or logical errors will not be accepted.


The decision to accept or reject a thread for this Subforum rests with the Staff and Science Advisors of Physics Forums. Decisions will be reached by consensus, and will be based entirely on the guidelines listed above. No Staff Member or Science Advisor will participate in the discussion of his or her own thread.

Action will be taken on all threads within 7 days of submission. If a thread is accepted then it will appear in this Subforum. If a thread is rejected the theorist will receive a PM from me that states the reason(s) for rejecting it.

Threads in this Subforum will not exceed 60 posts. I will take care to delete responses which are not relevant to the topic.

If rejected, theorists will be granted one opportunity to address the stated reasons for rejection, and to resubmit. Threads submitted to this Subforum that are not substantially different from previously terminated threads (after the 3 page limit) or threads that have been rejected twice will not be considered.

We welcome your questions and feedback.

Tom

 

[Math Is Hard]

Does this mean that the old TD subforum will completely go away?

 

[quantumdude]

The current TD subforum will be locked and moved out of the Physics area, but it will still be readable.

 

[Moonbear]

I think this is a great solution to the issues we've been addressing. Just one question; how will science advisors either be chosen or given the opportunity to view such posts prior to their approval in order to discuss whether they meet the guidelines? Will they have the ability to view the queued submissions, or will they be invited to view certain ones deemed to be within their area of expertise? Or does science advisor in this context refer to something different from these little medals we have over on the left here?

Well, I guess that was more than just one question, but pretty much all just trying to clarify the same thing.

 

[quantumdude]

Just one question; how will science advisors either be chosen or given the opportunity to view such posts prior to their approval in order to discuss whether they meet the guidelines?

All Science Advisors, along with the Staff, will be able to view and post to the screening forum. The only exceptions will be those threads that are submitted by either Science Advisors or Staff Members. In those cases the author will refrain from the discussion, despite their status.

Or does science advisor in this context refer to something different from these little medals we have over on the left here?

I am indeed talking about Science Advisor Medalists, but none of you will be under any obligation to participate.

 

[Moonbear]

All Science Advisors, along with the Staff, will be able to view and post to the screening forum. The only exceptions will be those threads that are submitted by either Science Advisors or Staff Members. In those cases the author will refrain from the discussion, despite their status.

So it will be sort of like a study section review, where those reviewing a topic will be known to each other and able to openly discuss concerns or support for a topic, but then once a decision is made, the summary or consensus decision will be presented anonymously to the poster? If so, that sounds reasonable.

 

[quantumdude]

Yes, that's right. I will be identified as the Forum Leader, and I will deliver all rejections. I will only indicate the reasons for rejection, not who said what.

The only instances in which there won't be anonymity is in those cases in which a Staff Member or Science Advisor submits a thread for consideration, because he or she will have access to the screening forum.

 

[PerennialII]

A solution worthy of applauds ... preserving the 'out of the box' creativity and providing a clearly defined venue for it, all the while sustaining and strengthening the integrity of PF ... :!) .

 

[marlon]

I think this is a great initiative and i believe lots of new people will be attracted or repelled by the way real science actually works. This initiative will certainly illustrate that.

regards
marlon

 

[jtbell]

It will be interesting to see how many people actually submit threads for this new forum, and how many of them are accepted!

 

[Andre]

7. If a new theory is strongly inconsistent with prior experiments, but the theorist is insisting that the experiments were either misconducted or misinterpreted by the scientific community, then the thread will be rejected. Instead the theorist should rebut the contradicting scientists in an appropriate journal.

I don't know. What would you do with my mainstrean conflict example here. When digging into the strenghts and weakenesses of the both, you may stumble upon big surprises ending up
with rock solid evidence -clear to everybody- that the political popular "main" mainstream appears to be flawed whilst the little mainstream looks to be right. Not something you get sold to proper paper easily.

 

[ZapperZ]

I don't know. What would you do with my mainstrean conflict example here. When digging into the strenghts and weakenesses of the both, you may stumble upon big surprises ending up
with rock solid evidence -clear to everybody- that the political popular "main" mainstream appears to be flawed whilst the little mainstream looks to be right. Not something you get sold to proper paper easily.

I didn't comment on this before, but since you brought up your postings once more, here goes.

There is this "myth", or maybe a fallacy, that ALL stuff published in peer-reviewed journals all follow one line of thought. This is absolutely FALSE. Case in point: the origin of the pairing symmetry and "kink" in the ARPES spectra along the nodal direction of high-Tc cuprate. You have 2/3 of the community pointing it to the magnetic/spin fluctuation origin, while the remaining 1/3 pointing to phonons. BOTH sides are getting their papers published, both experimental and theoretical! Not only that, there are splinter groups also publishing other models.

There is very seldom "rock solid evidence" at the research front, and ESPECIALLY in fields that tend to have lower degree of certainty in terms of experimental evidence. I would be very skeptical at claims that (i) you have a "homerun" theory in such a field of study and (ii) that such "non-mainstream" idea with that kind of certainty to be "correct" is not publishable based on what I have mentioned above. I don't see how "debating" it on PF would contribute to the body of knowledge.

Zz.

 

[Andre]

Concurring with the rock solid part, the jury remains out of course.But the example is at the lower end of the complexity of science, no longer interesting for the cutting edge seekers, done deals. Not to be discussed again. However, was to path getting along there too narrow? Were the conclusions too quick and too dirty? Have new devellopments been looked at? So if you happen to walk the same path years later, something that cutting edge guys usually don't do, but being able to see much more to the left and the right now, would you want to discuss that?

[Drat! I accidentally edited your posting. I have tried to restore it to its original version, sorry - Zz]

 

[ZapperZ]

Concurring with the rock solid part, the jury remains out of course.

Then I criticize you for making such statements in the first place. The impression left by such things cannot be left alone, which is why I intruded into this in the first place. You are giving the impression that science IGNORES "rock solid" evidence just for the sake of maintaining the status quo. Nothing could be further than the truth here.

But the example is at the lower end of the complexity of science, no longer interesting for the cutting edge seekers, done deals. Not to be discussed again. However, was to path getting along there too narrow? Were the conclusions too quick and too dirty? Have new devellopments been looked at? So if you happen to walk the same path years later, something that cutting edge guys usually don't do, but being able to see much more to the left and the right now, would you want to discuss that?

I again would point out the SAME situation developing in condensed matter physics that is causing us to look again at the BCS theory and to what extent it is valid. The BCS theory is one of, if not THE, most tested and verified theory in existence. Yet, it doesn't stop us from re-examining to what extent it will work based on "rock solid" emperical evidence from high-Tc superconductors.

So I do not buy this apparent scenario that we do not go back and retrace our steps when the occasion warrants such a thing. Nothing is sacred in physics.

Zz.

 

[Andre]

You are giving the impression that science IGNORES "rock solid" evidence just for the sake of maintaining the status quo. Nothing could be further than the truth here.

Most probably true in the hard physics branches. But I know better for the Earth/climate related branches. Perhaps you have not followed the hockeystick debate in climate science which is a long story of selective data mining and ignoring evidence. The biggest evidence that is categorically ignored for instance is the Mammoth steppe controversy.

Then I criticize you for making such statements in the first place.

Then I withdraw my concurrence. We were talking about falsifying. I believe that circumstancial evidence can never proof a soft earth/climate hypothesis to be right but it can falsify it. That's the rock solid part, equivalent to rock solid evidence that the Earth isn't flat. That was what I was talking about. If we accept that the two papers are in conflict then one is probably more right than the other. We can find out which one by looking at all the evidence, including mammoths.

Edit: now, before continuing the discussion it may be advisable to take note of this thread and this one. It would help explaining what my point is.

 

[ZapperZ]

Most probably true in the hard physics branches. But I know better for the Earth/climate related branches. Perhaps you have not followed the hockeystick debate in climate science which is a long story of selective data mining and ignoring evidence. The biggest evidence that is categorically ignored for instance is the Mammoth steppe controversy.

Then may I suggest that you confine your criticism to, and make it explicitly clear of, the area of science you are dealing with? Like I said, I would not have jumped into this in the first place till the overall impression left upon science in general is being smeared. As someone who is a part of it, and works in it, I simply could not let something like this slip by that implicates me indirectly.

Zz.

 

[quantumdude]

What would you do with my mainstrean conflict example here.

I think reasonable path would be the following. If you are discussing work that appears in journals or textbooks, whether to agree or disagree with it, it should go in the Earth forum for discussion. But if you are presenting your own positive claims, then it should go to the new forum when it opens.

 

[Moonbear]

I think reasonable path would be the following. If you are discussing work that appears in journals or textbooks, whether to agree or disagree with it, it should go in the Earth forum for discussion. But if you are presenting your own positive claims, then it should go to the new forum when it opens.

There can certainly be controversial topics for which neither view is outside the mainstream. If you're discussing something that has proponents on two different sides of the issue in the published literature (sometimes journals even manage to get publications submitted close enough to one another that they can print them back-to-back in the same issue to really highlight the controversy; or they invite certain authors to write articles to accomplish this), then there is no reason that discussion of the two (or more) commonly held explanations can't be discussed in the open forums. If someone isn't sure about such a topic and submits it to the "Outside the Mainstream" forum, then I see no reason such a topic couldn't be promptly moved out to another appropriate forum for discussion.

If, however, you are saying the mainstream literature has mostly reached a consensus on a topic, but you don't agree for X, Y, Z reasons and instead think you have a better explanation/theory, that should go in the "Outside the Mainstream" (OTM) forum. But, if one of those reasons you don't agree is that you think the published literature, particularly key studies forming the basis of the other theory, is flawed in its methodology, that's when we're saying take it to the journals (if you identify flawed methodology in a published work, the appropriate action is to write a letter to the editor of the journal that published it identifying the problems and letting them handle it either by contacting the authors for further clarification and publication of erratum as necessary, publishing your letter that raises the issues, or formally retracting the article) rather than here; that's because the editors and authors need to be given the opportunity to respond when flaws are suspected in their work. And if you can't or refuse to offer support for your own theory, then we will reject it from further discussion.

 

[Gokul43201]

Hmmm...reading that post, I feel the new forum should just be called TD, after all. Really, it is just a place where members can go to, if they wish to "publish" their original research on PF. How does it matter whether or not it is "mainstream" ? Is any other part of PF appropriate for discussing original theories ? I think not.

 

[marlon]

You are right, Gokul

Yeah, just let TD for what it is...I mean, we should also not expect too much of PF. Most of the members are not your average PhD students, professors or professional researchers. Lot's of members are still high school students with a new-grown interest for science. It is perfectly normal they want to 'publish' their ideas and it is up to us to tell where they are wrong or why a certain way of thinking is not conform the way science works and progresses.

I really think all this whinning about TD, which was started by one specific member btw, is a pure manifestation of ego-centrism and bad judging . If a person has a problem with it, then just do not visit this thread. Also, the stupid and superfluous suggestion to rename TD is really useless. I wonder why we all care about what one member is whinning about the last few months.

Do not change something that works perfectly fine.
If it ain't broken, don't fix it...

regards
marlon

 

[Gokul43201]

Marlon, I think you misunderstand me. I was merely suggesting that the name of the new forum remain "Theory Development" and that it's scope not be limited to ideas "outside the mainstream". I do not want the current policy with TD to continue. It wastes too much time and detracts from the purpose of the forum, to discuss science and help in its understanding.

One useful thing that will come out of the new forum, IMO, is that the weak "theories" will be shot down all too easily and the efforts of trained theorists will face no real challenge, due to the lack of expertise needed to provide such a review.

 

[quantumdude]

Hmmm...reading that post, I feel the new forum should just be called TD, after all.

That's exactly what I would call it, if the reputation of Theory Development weren't so irreparably damaged. TD has been the looney bin for almost 4 years, and everyone knows it. I want the new forum to be respectable, and a place where people want to have their threads.

Really, it is just a place where members can go to, if they wish to "publish" their original research on PF. How does it matter whether or not it is "mainstream" ? Is any other part of PF appropriate for discussing original theories ? I think not.

We definitely want to keep the independent research out of the main section of PF. We also don't want any particular independent theory hanging around forever here without peer review, hence the 3 page limit on threads.

Yeah, just let TD for what it is

No, No, and a thousand times No!

We don't want the TD Forum to grow any more. The whole idea here is to take the next step up and eliminate that sort of thing altogether. That's why we are graduating from moving the low quality posts to TD, to deleting them altogether, with an invitation to try again on a more professional level.

I really think all this whinning about TD, which was started by one specific member btw,

No, it wasn't. We've been dealing with this since the beginning.

 

[quantumdude]

Oh, and one other thing.

Also, the stupid and superfluous suggestion to rename TD is really useless.

The suggestion was mine. If you have a problem with it, you can take it up with me, but you'll have to state your reasons.

 

[Moonbear]

Yes, if the old TD forum hadn't gotten such a hideous reputation, TD would have been a preferable name for this new forum. What you have described, including the expectation of greater rigor in presenting new ideas, really is more true to what theory development involves.

Now that Gokul has mentioned it, I am a little concerned the name "Outside the Mainstream" may not be the best name for the new forum. While on one hand it is good to be clear that something is not mainstream, on the other hand, well, it's sort of an awkward sounding name. But, with TD off-limits as a title, I'm not sure what to suggest as an alternative other than "New and Improved Theory Development."

Maybe some brainstorming on the best title for the new forum would produce a better idea.

 

[dextercioby]

You are right, Gokul

Yeah, just let TD for what it is...I mean, we should also not expect too much of PF. Most of the members are not your average PhD students, professors or professional researchers. Lot's of members are still high school students with a new-grown interest for science. It is perfectly normal they want to 'publish' their ideas and it is up to us to tell where they are wrong or why a certain way of thinking is not conform the way science works and progresses.

I really think all this whinning about TD, which was started by one specific member btw, is a pure manifestation of ego-centrism and bad judging . If a person has a problem with it, then just do not visit this thread. Also, the stupid and superfluous suggestion to rename TD is really useless. I wonder why we all care about what one member is whinning about the last few months.

Do not change something that works perfectly fine.
If it ain't broken, don't fix it...

regards
marlon

Why do you bother, Marlon ? I mean do you really read and care about the posts in there ? I don't think so. You have more important issues right now (in your life), than worrying about a thread/(sub)forum on PF. I don't understand this attitude. You're not among the staff members, so you needn't worry about the amount of garbage from TD. Then what is it ?

Are you inteding to use, or actually were you intending to use TD to post your ideas, your theories, your own research and thus renaming and redisigning the (sub)forum would have altered your plans? I hope and I'm almost convinced that you'll try to publish your result in peer reviwed journals (or maybe on arxiv/slac spires), so i don't really see any answer to give when asked: WHY BOTHER/CARE ?

And don't use resounding words like "the stupid and superfluous suggestion to rename TD is really useless", because you just managed to offend someone, namely Tom Mattson in this case.

Daniel.

 

[Nereid]

A personal view: that PF has the maturity, intellectual heft, and courage to consider providing a forum for 'speculative ideas' is awesome. That PF's traditional 'TD' is - to the 99% level* - a dumping ground for wild and wacky ideas that have as much resemblance to physics as clouds do to third-level images of one's dead pets is surely incontroverable.

Yes, we have a challenge in what to name the new forum; however, its name is as close to irrelevant to what it will do (if we implement as planned) as one could hope for.

Yes, we have some interesting demarcation issues - e.g. 'interpretive' vs 'different' (if a new theory produces the same predictions as, say, GR, is it really different?); 'crackpot' vs 'real science' (if a 'non-mainstream' theory has several dozen - or more - publications in peer-reviewed journals under its belt, does it really need to go through the new forum? or is it already 'mainstream'?).

But let's not get sidetracked into discussions about perfection - I contend that 90+% of what we may be referring to here will be extremely easy to address. For the few exceptions, as long as we (PF) aren't too rigid, discussion on these will be educational, informative, and will help us fine-tune our policies so that it's even more clear we are *the best*.

*ask me and I'll be happy to back my statement with data and analyses.

 

[NateTG]

Growing a bit cynical.

Realistically, you need to expect there to be crackpots in a forum like this. The primary issue is how they're handled. As such, the notion of a gatekeeper comitee seems like a way to spam more instead of fewer people with the crackpottery, and doesn't appear to offer much in the way of benefits over the current moderated forums approach.

 

[Moonbear]

But let's not get sidetracked into discussions about perfection - I contend that 90+% of what we may be referring to here will be extremely easy to address. For the few exceptions, as long as we (PF) aren't too rigid, discussion on these will be educational, informative, and will help us fine-tune our policies so that it's even more clear we are *the best*.

*ask me and I'll be happy to back my statement with data and analyses.

I agree. There's no reason we can't tweak things later as we figure out what does and doesn't work, or change a name after it's opened if someone thinks of something that sounds better and more clearly describes it.

As such, the notion of a gatekeeper comitee seems like a way to spam more instead of fewer people with the crackpottery, and doesn't appear to offer much in the way of benefits over the current moderated forums approach.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Why?

 

[juvenal]

Why do you bother, Marlon ?

Belgium is truly a land of advanced mathematics and high-minded geniuses, as evidenced by the thread over in the Career forum, so Belgians are naturally shocked when others obsess over "superfluous" matters like the renaming of Theory Development.

 

[quantumdude]

Realistically, you need to expect there to be crackpots in a forum like this. The primary issue is how they're handled.

Yep, this is a method for handling them. We delete the crackpots and moderate the serious independent thinkers. Basically we know that we cannot stop the creative impulse, and we cannot stop people from expressing it here. But what we can do is set the terms for how they do it at PF.

As such, the notion of a gatekeeper comitee seems like a way to spam more instead of fewer people with the crackpottery, and doesn't appear to offer much in the way of benefits over the current moderated forums approach.

Well the way it stands, crackpots know they can't start new threads in TD. So they post their "stuff" in the main section knowing that it will get moved to TD, where it can be discussed until it is (inevitably) locked. Thus, there is a backdoor for starting new threads in TD, thus causing it to grow, thus making it more of an eyesore.

So what do we do? Do we just start deleting posts and issuing warnings? Certainly we could to that but it would just result in more complaints of censorship than we already deal with. An alternative is to follow this course: delete the half-baked posts and threads, and invite the author to try again, putting his best foot forward. What do I think will happen? A few will make the effort, some will go away, and most will spam the main section, get deleted again, and get themselves banned.

But at least under the new policy, TD in its current incarnation stops growing, and gets retired. It's long overdue, IMO.

And don't use resounding words like "the stupid and superfluous suggestion to rename TD is really useless", because you just managed to offend someone, namely Tom Mattson in this case.

Not to worry, there's nothing that anyone can post on an internet message board that could offend me.

 

[marlon]

Why do you bother, Marlon ? I mean do you really read and care about the posts in there ?

No, ofcourse not. I agree with your entire post here, really. It is just that 99% of the members here will never publish anything in a real peer reviewed journal, trust me on that. This is just an internet forum and it certainly does not represent the scientific community, so why trying to follow analoguous rules of a real scientific community.

Yes, i admit, i never read the content of posts in TD and i never visit this sub-forum because of the obvious reasons. Also, i will most certainly not debate the content of my own work here simple because i am not allowed and i am sure that most people would not even know what i am talking about. I am not trying to be impolite here but you know very well that the content of a phd is very specialized...so this is not an insult.

And don't use resounding words like "the stupid and superfluous suggestion to rename TD is really useless", because you just managed to offend someone, namely Tom Mattson in this case.

Daniel.

I do not think it is possible to offend Tom, but it is my opinion.

marlon

 

[marlon]

The suggestion was mine. If you have a problem with it, you can take it up with me, but you'll have to state your reasons.

Whatever you say,

I think that renaming a sub forum will not change the way most people look at it because tell me this : why would they ?
If you want to get rid of TD then just delete it entirely. But you know as well as i do that most people will keep on posting personal theories and their personal views on science. the content of these posts is in 99.9% of the cases completely wrong due to lack of knowledge, etc...we all know that but it will always be a part of this forum because most members are just young students trying to discover science for the first time. By selecting certain 'better' (less bad, that is) theories , you will find yourself doing just the very same things as you were doing when 'cleaning up' the TD-subforum. We will always need to correct such posts but isn't that what we have been doing up till now ? I really do not see how changing this policy will actually chamge things for the better...Now, that is my question to you...

marlon

 

[marlon]

To the members of the PF community,

As the next step in the growth of Physics Forums, we are updating our policy concerning the development of personal theories at this website. We will be creating a new, moderated Forum entitled Outside the Mainstream, wherein such theories can be submitted for approval by the Staff and Science Advisors of Physics Forums. We will implement this new policy in such a way as to be of maximum benefit first to Physics Forums and second to you, the theorist. The policy change will take effect on July 15, 2005, and the new Forum will be a Subforum of Scepticism and Debunking.
Tom

You are overestimating yourself here.

First of all, nobody is ever going to post serious research out here
Secondly, suppose all posted suggestions are just rubbish then you are doing the same thing as moderating the TD-subforum...what is the point ?

Thirdly, if some poor slob would ever present something serious here, do you claim you have the people to judge this work effectively ? I don't think so...We have quite some expertise here but how many members are actually realtime specialists with an impressive publication record ? How man members are doing publication-refereeing in real life...and we will need such people on various fields...i do not believe that you have such people, but you can always try to convince me

marlon

 

[TenaliRaman]

IANAE(I am not an Expert) but marlon,
I think after reading through this entire discussion, i can answer your questions,

First of all, nobody is ever going to post serious research out here

Read chronon's objection.
He (and a few others) believe that some non-mainstream ideas may have value and PF wants to give avenues for such ideas to grow as long as it has potential.

Secondly, suppose all posted suggestions are just rubbish then you are doing the same thing as moderating the TD-subforum...what is the point ?

The old TD let any ppl (ppl like me who have absolutely little experience with physics) to post and rant abt it. Moderating such a forum is tedious. However the new TD will have a moderation queue, which means the moderators decide what goes as a discussion thread in the new TD forum. Moderation of such threads will be much easier to handle for the moderators.
[edit]Also i forgot to add, since moderation is going to be anonymous, this could potentially avoid flamewars. We won't be seeing "chroot, you know nothin" or atleast expect not to see it[/edit]

Thirdly, if some poor slob would ever present something serious here, do you claim you have the people to judge this work effectively ? I don't think so...We have quite some expertise here but how many members are actually realtime specialists with an impressive publication record ? How man members are doing publication-refereeing in real life...and we will need such people on various fields

The idea is not validate their theories but just to see whether their ideas hold any merit at all and i think PF has enough expertise to judge that. If PF members could validate their theories, they wouldn't even need to start a **discussion** thread at all in the first place.

Just offering my two cents! Pardon if i made a mistake!

-- AI

 

[marlon]

Just offering my two cents! Pardon if i made a mistake!

-- AI

No problem, i also just gave my opinion

regards
marlon

 

[chronon]

Read chronon's objection.
He (and a few others) believe that some non-mainstream ideas may have value and PF wants to give avenues for such ideas to grow as long as it has potential.

Indeed I do, and I think that the new forum is an excellent idea.

People have suggested that non-standard ideas can be sent to an expert or submitted to a journal or a conference. There are two problems with this

1) If they don't get much of a response then they can't tell whether it is because their idea really was totally wrong, or whether the journal editor felt that it was unsuitable for the journal (or the expert didn't have time to read it).

2) Many people aren't used to the normal process of publishing in journals etc., and would see discussion on an internet forum as a first step.

True it won't be the same as having an expert read it, but then if you did send it to an expert who didn't immediately throw it in the waste bin, then its quite possible that they would assign a student to 'check it out'.

 

[quantumdude]

I think that renaming a sub forum will not change the way most people look at it because tell me this : why would they ?

They would look at it differently because it is being held to a high standard and because they will know that the Staff takes it seriously enough to take the trouble to moderate the Forum by accepting or rejecting threads according to that standard.

The TD Forum fell into utter disrepute because it was obvious to everyone that no one, including the Staff, took it seriously. It has been considered a garbage dump since PF began, and it is an artifact from our early, more naive days.

I am saying that it is time to close the garbage dump and move it out of the house.

If you want to get rid of TD then just delete it entirely.

That was an option on the table, but none of us is willing to do that. We don't capriciously delete information around here. That is why when the new policy goes into effect, deleted posts under that policy will be accompanied by a PM.

But you know as well as i do that most people will keep on posting personal theories and their personal views on science. the content of these posts is in 99.9% of the cases completely wrong due to lack of knowledge, etc...we all know that but it will always be a part of this forum because most members are just young students trying to discover science for the first time.

We are prepared to differentiate between eager young learners and independent theorists. In fact we already do that. Novices who, say, question relativity out of ignorance are accommodated in the main section of PF. But those who make half-cocked posts that declare relativity is wrong, we move to TD and usually end up banning. What we're saying is that from now on we will not move the latter type of posts to TD. We will simply eliminate it, and at the same time provide a venue in the event that the person wants to propose a serious alternative.

By selecting certain 'better' (less bad, that is) theories , you will find yourself doing just the very same things as you were doing when 'cleaning up' the TD-subforum.

No, we won't have to do that. If a theory that "overturns" SR is based on a mathematical error, we will simply reject it. Simple. There will be no more pages and pages of rebuttals for people who will not be persuaded. That's the idea.

We will always need to correct such posts but isn't that what we have been doing up till now ? I really do not see how changing this policy will actually chamge things for the better...Now, that is my question to you...

No one will need to correct these posts, because there will be a disclaimer at the top of the new Forum that states that the thread is a work in progress, and has yet to be verified. This is further reinforced by moving the new Forum out of the Physics section. People need not feel any obligation to rebut the thread, or even to respond to it.

 

[quantumdude]

You are overestimating yourself here.

After reading your post 3 times, I am still at at total loss as to how.

First of all, nobody is ever going to post serious research out here

So then the worst case scenario is that TD stops growing, no more half-baked posts are allowed, and we have an empty subforum called "Outside the Mainstream".

That still sounds pretty damn good to me!

Secondly, suppose all posted suggestions are just rubbish then you are doing the same thing as moderating the TD-subforum...what is the point ?

The point is that the rubbish is no longer posted at PF.

Thirdly, if some poor slob would ever present something serious here, do you claim you have the people to judge this work effectively ? I don't think so...We have quite some expertise here but how many members are actually realtime specialists with an impressive publication record ? How man members are doing publication-refereeing in real life...and we will need such people on various fields...

You're missing the point. The idea is that we are going to judge the theories solely on whether or not they conform to the new guidelines, not on the probability that the author is correct. That can be hashed out in the discussion itself. We certainly have the personnel needed to check that all the requirements are satisfied, so I don't see this as a problem at all.

i do not believe that you have such people, but you can always try to convince me

Marlon, it really doesn't matter to me if you are ever convinced. I've convinced the Staff, and that's all that is needed. I'll be happy to address your questions and concerns, but one thing is already decided: We are going to do this.

 

[marlon]

Tom,
altering the policy will not rise the quality level up to a higher level given the general knowledge of most of the candidate posters.

And you say you do not want to deleted info capriciously. Tell me, which info coming from TD is that ? Can't you see the irony in such an argument?

marlon

 

[marlon]

We are going to do this.

Ofcourse, please be my guest...
Thanks for 'answering' my questions, err.

marlon

 

[quantumdude]

altering the policy will not rise the quality level up to a higher level given the general knowledge of most of the candidate posters.

I disagree. I think that this new policy will force the candidate posters to critically re-examine what they have written, in light of the fact that it will be rejected if it does not conform to the guidelines.

Of course, it will be impossible for a mere policy change to raise the knowledge of candidate posters, so I am not expecting the quality to increase from the high end. But what I do think will happen is that the overall quality will be raised by eliminating the low end of what was formerly allowed to be posted here.

And you say you do not want to deleted info capriciously. Tell me, which info coming from TD is that ?

The information coming from those who took the time to respond to the crackpots.

Can't you see the irony in such an argument?

No, I can not see it. Why don't you explain it to me?

Thanks for 'answering' my questions, err.

You may not like the answers, but I am in fact answering your questions openly and frankly. Anyone can see that.

 

[marlon]

I disagree. I think that this new policy will force the candidate posters to critically re-examine what they have written, in light of the fact that it will be rejected if it does not conform to the guidelines.

Of course, it will be impossible for a mere policy change to raise the knowledge of candidate posters, so I am not expecting the quality to increase from the high end. But what I do think will happen is that the overall quality will be raised by eliminating the low end of what was formerly allowed to be posted here.

The problem is this : asking a novice to re-examin the content of some speculative post will not lead to anything good due to lack of knowledge. This is what is going to happen in most of the cases. That is also why i say this moderating will be no different from what is being done in TD now.
It is as simple as that.

The information coming from those who took the time to respond to the crackpots.

Didn't you just tell me that even the staff was taking TD not very seriously. Most threads are just closed and although some eople will have attempted to correct certain posts it cannot be very much, otherwise TD would just be the same as the QM or relativity sub forum...

No, I can not see it. Why don't you explain it to me?

There is no real info in TD, only the notion that a certain post is wrong
marlon

 

[quantumdude]

The problem is this : asking a novice to re-examin the content of some speculative post will not lead to anything good due to lack of knowledge.

No one's state of knowledge is static. There are a precious few people out there who are not attached to an academic institution, but who will still hit the books if they are told that their ideas are faulty. These are the people we are aiming to accommodate.

This is what is going to happen in most of the cases.

If that turns out to be true, then most of the cases will be rejected.

That is also why i say this moderating will be no different from what is being done in TD now.
It is as simple as that.

The difference for PF as a whole is that today garbage threads are posted (and therefore viewable) in TD, after July 15 they won't be seen at all. The difference from a moderating standpoint is that today irrational arguments have to be rebutted in TD, until the thread is actually locked. But after July 15 the irrational arguments will be weeded out in the moderation queue.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Didn't you just tell me that even the staff was taking TD not very seriously.

That comment was in the context of why we are not calling the new forum "Theory Development". If a thread was moved to TD, it meant that the Staff considered it garbage. That's what I meant.

It does not imply that Staff members and Science Advisors did not do a lot of outstanding, admirable work responding there. In fact, they did.

Most threads are just closed and although some eople will have attempted to correct certain posts it cannot be very much, otherwise TD would just be the same as the QM or relativity sub forum...


There is no real info in TD, only the notion that a certain post is wrong
marlon

You have no idea of what you are talking about, which is not surprising in view of the fact that in Post #31 you said:

Yes, i admit, i never read the content of posts in TD and i never visit this sub-forum because of the obvious reasons.

 

[marlon]

No one's state of knowledge is static. There are a precious few people out there who are not attached to an academic institution, but who will still hit the books if they are told that their ideas are faulty. These are the people we are aiming to accommodate.

That is what you are doing in this entire physics forum. Is that so hard to see ? Gee...

If that turns out to be true, then most of the cases will be rejected.

ofcourse, just like most posts are blocked. The effect is just the same. You should just delete the bad posts in TD, thus delete the entire sub forum.

The difference for PF as a whole is that today garbage threads are posted (and therefore viewable) in TD, after July 15 they won't be seen at all. The difference from a moderating standpoint is that today irrational arguments have to be rebutted in TD, until the thread is actually locked. But after July 15 the irrational arguments will be weeded out in the moderation queue.

?
the amount of work is still going to be equally big because people will start to ask why their post was not accepted. The resulting situation is will be an exact copy of what is going on in TD now. Why can't you see that ?

Maybe people will start asking why they did not get in by sending PM's to your socalled reviewers. Are they going to be able to cope with such an incoming flow of questions and complaints ? This is TD all over again, plus given the fact you do not have the people to do this, i say this is a very superfluous (already made) decision.

It does not imply that Staff members and Science Advisors did not do a lot of outstanding, admirable work responding there. In fact, they did.

Ok, but the point is that they will have to keep on doing that, so what ?
By changing this policy you may have a different result as seen from the 'outside' but you know damn well there is going to be a lot of discussion going on on the 'inside'. JUST LIKE IN TD.

marlon

 

[quantumdude]

That is what you are doing in this entire physics forum. Is that so hard to see ? Gee...

You are pointing out a similarity in the two policies, but ignoring the differences, which are:

1. That TD will stop growing, and finally be retired.
2. That posting of independent research will be done according to strict guidelines, or not at all.
3. That the irrational, half-baked nonsense will be deleted, instead of moved to TD.

ofcourse, just like most posts are blocked. The effect is just the same. You should just delete the bad posts in TD, thus delete the entire sub forum.

I will once again note that by your own admission you have no idea of what is actually contained in TD. Suffice it to say that there is information there that we do not wish to delete.

?
the amount of work is still going to be equally big because people will start to ask why their post was not accepted.

As I said in my opening post, they will be given the reason why their post was not accepted. Any public outbursts can simply be deleted.

The resulting situation is will be an exact copy of what is going on in TD now. Why can't you see that ?

No, it will not be an exact copy of the current TD section. For the umpteenth time, the kind of posts that currently get sent to that forum will be deleted.

Maybe people will start asking why they did not get in by sending PM's to your socalled reviewers. Are they going to be able to cope with such an incoming flow of questions and complaints ?

Did you not read my response to Moonbear? I said that the reviews will be anonymous. I will be sending the notifications myself. Why don't you let me worry about how to handle my own PM box?

This is TD all over again, plus given the fact you do not have the people to do this, i say this is a very superfluous (already made) decision.

You seem to still be operating under the assumption that we will be taking on the role of a peer-reviewed journal. If your assumption were true, then you would be right, we would not have enough people.

But your assumption is not true. We are only going to judge submitted threads on their adherance to the guidelines. If the methodology and format is up to snuff, then we'll let it be posted in the new forum. And since, according to the new guidelines, the new forum will look nothing like the garbage dump that is the current TD section, I cannot for the life of me figure out why you would say that it is "superfluous". PF has never had anything like this before.

Ok, but the point is that they will have to keep on doing that, so what ?
By changing this policy you may have a different result as seen from the 'outside' but you know damn well there is going to be a lot of discussion going on on the 'inside'. JUST LIKE IN TD.

No, it won't be just like in TD. And since you've never read anything in TD, how would you even know?

The Staff members and Science Advisors who participated in TD literally went to battle with a great many blockheads who posted there. Arguments could go on for pages about one of these "theories" being invalid because of, say, a division by zero error (this really happened). The author of course would not accept the criticism, and his active participation (disruption?) in the discussion thread is what drew the whole thing out ad nauseum until the thread was finally locked.

The main point is something that you would not have picked up, having not participated in TD: The presence of the author made the reviewing much more difficult.

Under the new policy, the author won't be there to interfere with the screening. If that thread had been posted under the new policy, it would have been rejected and the author informed as to why, and that would be the end of it. If the author re-posted, we would delete and warn until he stopped or was banned. There will be no 20 pages of Algebra 101 under the new policy.

It really is quite obvious that, for better or for worse, the pre-July 15 policy and the post-July 15 policy have very different implications for both the face of PF and for the way the Staff approaches moderating the site. If you can't see that then I put it to you that it is due to one or both of the following reasons:

1. You have not read/understood my explanation of the new policy.
2. You have not understood just what has gone on in the TD section.

#2 is true for certain, and based on your comments I strongly suspect that #1 is true as well. That being the case, I think I've addressed your objections as much as I intend to until #1 and #2 aren't true. There is enough constructive advice from people who "get it" for us to work with.

 

[quantumdude]

Indeed I do, and I think that the new forum is an excellent idea.

Why thank you.

This has been in the works for a couple of weeks, and I really wanted to tell both you and Zanket in our recent discussions, but I had to wait until Greg gave the thumbs-up to let the cat out of the bag.

Anyway, here is our solution to some of the objections that have been raised over the years regarding PF and censorship. We are still going to exert strong leadership over this new forum, but it will be a venue that will be taken seriously by all who participate.

 

[Astronuc]

Tom, I also think, as chronon and others stated, that the new forum is an excellent idea.

I do not envy you for taking on the role of moderator in that forum.

But if you need some assistance on nuclear engineering topics, you know where to find me.

 

[marlon]

You are pointing out a similarity in the two policies, but ignoring the differences, which are:

1. That TD will stop growing, and finally be retired.

yes, i agree with that.

2. That posting of independent research will be done according to strict guidelines, or not at all.

For the 1000th time, no real socalled independent research is ever going to be posted here. The content of these posts is just the bad degraded posts that have been moved out the other sub forums.

3. That the irrational, half-baked nonsense will be deleted, instead of moved to TD.

well, here is where we disagree but ok, let's drop it.

I will once again note that by your own admission you have no idea of what is actually contained in TD. Suffice it to say that there is information there that we do not wish to delete.

Well, i was going to let it slip away but since you have used this argument several times i will tell you this : i have been participating in TD in my first months on this forum. I have had many discussions with a banned member (his name was Kurious) on the actual nature of the strong force and the electroweak force. This specific member had done some 'personal research' on these topics and well, the result is well known. I put in a lot of effort to explain why he was wrong. So please, when making accusations, be more informed.

As I said in my opening post, they will be given the reason why their post was not accepted. Any public outbursts can simply be deleted.

But i am not debating that. What i am trying to say is that people will want to know why their 'research' was not accepted. Well, ok i will just drop it...because otherwise Gokul will send me even more warnings...

If i have offended anyone, please accept my apologies, it was not my intention

regards
marlon

 

[quantumdude]

For the 1000th time, no real socalled independent research is ever going to be posted here. The content of these posts is just the bad degraded posts that have been moved out the other sub forums.

Firstly, you don't know that that will be the case. We will only know by trying it out.

And secondly, I've already answered this point of yours. You don't need to keep bringing it up.

I said:

"So then the worst case scenario is that TD stops growing, no more half-baked posts are allowed, and we have an empty subforum called "Outside the Mainstream".

That still sounds pretty damn good to me!"

Tom: 3. That the irrational, half-baked nonsense will be deleted, instead of moved to TD.

Marlon: well, here is where we disagree but ok, let's drop it.

This doesn't make any sense. You disagree with what, exactly? That the posts will be deleted? I assure you, they will.

Well, i was going to let it slip away but since you have used this argument several times i will tell you this : i have been participating in TD in my first months on this forum. I have had many discussions with a banned member (his name was Kurious) on the actual nature of the strong force and the electroweak force. This specific member had done some 'personal research' on these topics and well, the result is well known. I put in a lot of effort to explain why he was wrong.

Good for you.

So please, when making accusations, be more informed.

Are you stoned?

Firstly Marlon, you told me that you never read TD, and you made comments that are strongly consistent with that admission. I make my best effort to understand people as well as possible when I listen to them, but there's only so much I can do. If you deliberately miselad me, then I can hardly be faulted for that.

And secondly, my point to you is to "be more informed" about the things that you talk about. You said, "There is no real info in TD, only the notion that a certain post is wrong", which is patently false.

But i am not debating that. What i am trying to say is that people will want to know why their 'research' was not accepted.

And as I already told you, I will tell them why it is not accepted.

What's the problem?

Well, ok i will just drop it...because otherwise Gokul will send me even more warnings...

I seriously doubt that you would be warned for well-considered criticisms of this idea that are free of barbs. But really Marlon, all you've done in this thread is engage in misguided ranting, which I think everyone can agree that we can do without.

 

[Moonbear]

But i am not debating that. What i am trying to say is that people will want to know why their 'research' was not accepted.

Well, that's something Tom will have to deal with if they flood his PM inbox, but it seems if he's willing to take that on, then I say good on him! However, the important bit is that if they are rejected, it will be based on whether they've met the criteria Tom listed in this opening post, not on whether we agree or disagree with the validity of the theory itself. Having read a number of the threads in TD, I'd have to say that the real crackpots are never going to meet those requirements, so can be quickly deleted and sent on their not so merry way. What this forum will likely include, if we receive such submissions, are those borderline topics where the discussion is more interesting and even if the original idea is dismissed during the discussion, the information that comes out of the discussion is informative.

It will get rid of the eyesore of those topics where someone posts their personal theory, someone painstakingly explains not just what is wrong with the theory, but provides a very informative post about what is known related to current theory, only to have the crackpot come back with a post along the lines of, "Yeah, but if you ignore all that stuff you just said is wrong, this is still a great theory." Or where they spiral off into flame wars as people get fed up with the futility.

The other upside I see to this is that nobody is ever going to see these wacky theories other than those of us with sufficient scientific training to not be confused by quackery. It avoids having students read a post with a long back-and-forth diatribe where they just don't know who to believe. And, at the same time, we give those who can debate a controversial topic intelligently a chance to do so. It's basically saying, we recognize that sometimes you do have to speculate a bit to find the next step to take in research, and that's a good place to do your speculating where it's clear to others that it is indeed speculation and not tested theory.

I think it also makes it easier in the long-run for the moderators to handle the people who run here screaming censorship when their posts are deleted or moved to TD. We now have a clear guideline for such posts and a place to submit them. If they are submitted to the wrong place, they will be summarily deleted, regardless of potential merit, with an invitation to reformat and submit to the proper place. They have fair warning in advance of what they need to do to have their thread topic accepted for discussion in that forum, and the onus is on them to conform to that format or have their post rejected. We no longer have to tiptoe around telling them that they are a crackpot or their "theory" is completely wrong, we can just point to the submission criteria they did not meet.

Plus, it is also now spelled out that if they try to circumvent the need for approval of such topics by posting in the wrong forum, they will receive warnings and be rather quickly banned if they persist rather than needing to wait for them to start insulting the moderators before they've broken enough site rules to get banned.

I guess I look at it that at the very worst, we end up with an empty forum and just as many cranks running around crying censorship as we have now. So, that would mean we wind up with the status quo as the worst case scenario. At best, we substantially clean up PF and wind up with a very interesting forum of non-mainstream ideas with thoughtful discussion. I suspect we'll wind up with something intermediate to that.

As for the current TD forum... I don't know if I'd miss it at all if it disappeared overnight. I realize there's motivation to keep it for the sake of the informative posts interspersed throughout by those who really put the effort into try to correct people's misunderstandings, but those are so buried amidst the insults, crying, and crackpottery, that I'm not sure how useful they really are. On the other hand, cracked pottery seems to be a popular museum exhibit, so maybe it should be renamed, "PF Museum of Crackpottery." We can all stand around and gawk.