What is your definition of Heaven?

[quantumcarl]

What is your definition of Heaven?

I see it as a place where Hell and an infinite variety of other conditions are of great interest and benefit to a state of being.

 

[iron~orchid]

Interesting that you see Heaven as a place and, yet, reference a state of being. Are these places of Heaven and Hell the Afterlife dimensional places to which we go or are they delusional devices to ward off the anxiety of being what we are now ?

Robert Monroe reported that during his travels in the Afterlife dimension he regularly saw hellishly delusional constructions devised by groups of souls who obsessively pursued sex (mounds of naked people in a pile clawing to get at each other) as a defensive illusion against their lostness.

Another writing describes being in Hell as an Afterlife where certain souls can not wake up to Heaven after death, caught up, no doubt, in the same illusions they devised in their Earth life.

Myself, I saw one of my friends recently, who has passed, and his eyes were not there. Instead, there was glowing red lights. We are used to association of red and fire with the Hell of the Devil. So, it made me concerned for him; concerned that he has not gotten past all of the anger he had stored within him as I knew him during this life.

 

[Iacchus32]

You neglected to add a state of mind or being "with dimensions." Which is the only way I can begin to describe it.

 

[kyle_soule]

This thread is not about hell.

I voted it was a state of mind because it seems obvious that the soul isn't a physical part of the body (although I think the soul is only a person's personality, but I stretch my boundaries and refer to the religious soul).

You neglected to add a state of mind or being "with dimensions." Which is the only way I can begin to describe it.

I see no reason for Heaven to have dimensions, it would basically be another place. Heaven perhaps is another dimension, but not multidimensional.

Although, I think the idea of Heaven and the possibility of it being another dimensions is a weak attempt by people to tie science into religion.

If Heaven truly exists, there is no physical evidence of it, so one would only assume its a state of un/consciousness.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by kyle_soule
I see no reason for Heaven to have dimensions, it would basically be another place. Heaven perhaps is another dimension, but not multidimensional.

Although, I think the idea of Heaven and the possibility of it being another dimensions is a weak attempt by people to tie science into religion.

If Heaven truly exists, there is no physical evidence of it, so one would only assume its a state of un/consciousness.

Let me ask you this? Do you dream in three dimensions? Or, is that just illusory? Don't our dreams also reflect our state of mind and being?

If we can do it in our dreams, which is merely an introduction to the spiritual world, then why not even more so in heaven?

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
If we can do it in our dreams, which is merely an introduction to the spiritual world, then why not even more so in heaven?

There is no evidence of dreams being an introduction into the spiritual world.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by kyle_soule
There is no evidence of dreams being an introduction into the spiritual world.

To whom? There are a lot people that would tell you otherwise.

 

[Iacchus32]

Where do we go when we dream?

From the thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showt...611&perpage=15&highlight=dreams&pagenumber=3" ...

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Who are we and what are we in relationship to that which we dream about? I know for me there's always some sort of interaction going on, and it's hard to believe it's merely a by-product of some electro-chemical process going on in the brain. What are these other so-called "enitities" experiencing when they experience me? It's like I had always been there, and yet separate, as if I were a separate entity. Which, is pretty much the way I experience them.

And yet there are times when I become more concsious in this state and I say, "By the way, I haven't died yet." And they all look at me with puzzled faces and say, "What do mean? It's always been this way. This is it man (reality)." And it's about this time that I begin to wake up, and realize that I'm laying in bed, and there they are still looking at me! And I say, "Hey, I tried to explain it you!" Soon after they would all depart and I would go back to my being unaware of them.

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
To whom? There are a lot people that would tell you otherwise.

They only say it, no proof. You can find a lot of people that will say a lot of foolish things, not implying this is foolish, it just has no proof. As you said above, it is just the cerebral cortex receiving signals [electrochemical process], and trying to interpret them.

Interestingly, the cerebral cortex is also involved in prayer; which, IMO, may lead to two conclusions: 1) Dreams are like prayer in the sense you are experiencing Heaven or 2) Prayer is like dreaming, it really has no affect outside of yourself, in other words, God doesn't receive the prayers.

 

[Iacchus32]

Representatives and Appearances in Heaven

Excerpt from Emanuel Swedenborg, Swedish born scientist turned mystic ...

The man who thinks from natural light alone is unable to comprehend that there is any thing in heaven like what is in the world; and for the reason that from natural light he has previously thought, and established himself in the idea, that angels are nothing but minds, and that minds are like ehtereal breaths, having no senses like those of men, thus no eyes, and if no eyes no objects of sight; and yet the angels have every sense that a man has, and far more exquisite senses; and the light by which angels see is far brighteer than the light by which man sees. That angels are men in the most complete form, and enjoy every sense, may be seen above (n. 73-77); and that the light in heaven is far brighter than the light in the world (n. 126-132).

The nature of the objects that are visible to angels in heaven cannot be described in a few words. For the most part they are like things on earth, but in form far more perfect, and in number more abundant. That such things exist in the heavens is evident from the things seen by the prophets,--as by Ezekiel in relation to the new temple and the new Earth (as described from chaps. xl. to xlviii); by Daniel (from chap. vii. to xii.); by John (from the first chapter of the Apocalypse to the last); and by others, as described both in the historic and the prophetic part of the Word. These things were seen by them when heaven was open to them, and heaven is said to be opened when the interior sight, which is the sight of man's spirit, is opened. For what is in the heavens cannot be seen by the eyes of a man's body, but are seen by the eyes of his spirit; and when it seems good to the Lord these are opened, and man is then withdrawn from the natural light that he is in from the bodily senses and is raised up into spiritual light, which he is in from his spirit. In that light the things in heaven have been seen by me.

http://www.swedenborg.com/" - Heaven and Hell.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by iron~orchid
Interesting that you see Heaven as a place and, yet, reference a state of being. Are these places of Heaven and Hell the Afterlife dimensional places to which we go or are they delusional devices to ward off the anxiety of being what we are now ?

Robert Monroe reported that during his travels in the Afterlife dimension he regularly saw hellishly delusional constructions devised by groups of souls who obsessively pursued sex (mounds of naked people in a pile clawing to get at each other) as a defensive illusion against their lostness.

Another writing describes being in Hell as an Afterlife where certain souls can not wake up to Heaven after death, caught up, no doubt, in the same illusions they devised in their Earth life.

Myself, I saw one of my friends recently, who has passed, and his eyes were not there. Instead, there was glowing red lights. We are used to association of red and fire with the Hell of the Devil. So, it made me concerned for him; concerned that he has not gotten past all of the anger he had stored within him as I knew him during this life.

Welcome to Physicsforums. You have certainly found a nice little hiding place for your first post. Took some navigating, to be sure. My first look at this place and I couldn't find myself here if I tried.

Iacchus32... you have a point... however... I believe a concept like Heaven is OMNIDIMENSIONAL.

Its got to be the ultimate Quantum element. It exists in every state including hell. One can believe that if one ties Love to Heaven. In the state of hell, people love their pain, anger, frustations, blame, fear and other suffering... they LOVE it... (operative word)... and so, this preference or what you called "rule of love"... is a quantum element of Heaven.

Not that I know. Just guessing.

PS... yes, this poll is about heaven... not red glowing eyes and piles of humping bodies etc...

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by quantumcarl
Its got to be the ultimate Quantum element. It exists in every state including hell. One can believe that if one ties Love to Heaven. In the state of hell, people love their pain, anger, frustations, blame, fear and other suffering... they LOVE it... (operative word)... and so, this preference or what you called "rule of love"... is a quantum element of Heaven.

Hey to each his own, right? ... You bet!

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Hey to each his own, right? ... You bet!

Yes, its very cool. Actually, the guy i mentioned before, Stu Wilde, says Heaven is WARM.

He also has discerned that Hell is as cold as H E double toothpicks.

There are some physics involved in his arrival at these conclusions... but i don't remember them well.

One thing I remember is that the people who are carrying around Hell with them also create a large amount of Gravity... not the same gravity as we know it... but a kind of Attraction that brings them more grief and suffering... the thing they like to focus on most.

He says its like they have created a type of black hole or that they are themselves attracted to a type of black hole... possibly... hell...

Heaven on the other hand can be a cold beer... but also the warm feeling it creates for the person imbibing. It can be a warm feeling for the person serving the beer... they get a tip... it can be a warm feeling for the pub owner... they have customers... it can be a warm deal for the other customers... they have company... good all around.

 

[Iacchus32]

Light and Heat in Heaven

Excerpt from http://www.swedenborg.com/" , Heaven and Hell ...

Something shall now be said about the heat of heaven. That heat in its essence is love. It goes forth from the Lord as a sun, which is Divine love in the Lord, as has been shown in the preceding chapter. It is evident, therefore, that the heat of heaven, like the light of heaven, is spiritual, because from the same source. There are two things that go forth from the Lord as a sun, Divine truth and Divine good; Divine truth is manifested in the heavens as light, and Divine good as heat; and yet Divine truth and Divine good are so united that they are not two, but one. Nevertheless, with angels they are separate, for there are angels that receive more of Divine good than of Divine truth, and there are those that receive more of Divine truth than of Divine good. Those who receive more of Divine good are in the Lord's celestial kingdom, and those who receive more of Divine truth are in His spiritual kingdom. Those that receive both in a like degree are the most perfect angels.

The heat of heaven, like the light of heaven, is everywhere different. It is different in the celestial kingdom from what it is in the spiritual kingdom, and it is different in each society therein. It differs both in degree and in quality. It is more intense and more pure in the Lord's celestial kingdom, because the angels there receive more of Divine good; and it is less intense and pure in His spiritual kingdom, because the angels there receive more of Divine truth. Also in each society the heat differs in accordance with reception. There is heat in the hells, but it is unclean heat. The heat in heaven is what is meant by holy and heavenly fire, and the heat of hell by profane and infernal fire. Both mean love--heavenly fire meaning love to the Lord and love to the neighbor and every affection of those loves, and infernal fire meaning love of self and love of the world and every lust of those loves. That love is heat from a spiritual source is shown from one's growing warm with love; for in accodance with the strength and nature of his love a man is inflamed and grows warm; and the heat of his love is made manifest when it is opposed. From this also it is customary to speak of being inflamed, growing hot, burning, boiling, being on fire, both in regard to the affections of the love of good and the lusts of the love of evil.

 

[FZ+]

Heaven is oblivion.
Yes, a freedom from responsbilities. Without time and suffering. Without guilt and temptation. Without regret.

To die forever would be heaven. Anything else, anything with a semblence of immortality can only be hell in disguise.

 

[Iacchus32]

Originally posted by FZ+
Heaven is oblivion.
Yes, a freedom from responsbilities. Without time and suffering. Without guilt and temptation. Without regret.

To die forever would be heaven. Anything else, anything with a semblence of immortality can only be hell in disguise.

"The eye hath not seen, nor hath the ear heard, what God has prepared for those who love Him ..."

 

[FZ+]

Indeed, it could turn out to be a big torture chamber...

Truly though, how can an eternity of any existence be desirable? I remember that the best way to wean someone off a chocolate addiction is to find them a job in a chocolate factory...

 

[iron~orchid]

I was not looking for myself here, quantumcarl, whatever you are meaning by that.

my apology . I have always been told that Hell is the opposite of Heaven and thought the observation of one represented the space not filled by the other.

I remove my thoughts from your board.

sorry

hi and bye

 

[chosenone]

heaven would be here on earth.when you die you become a ghost.you are pure energy.so your life is roaming aroud the world watching people live there lives,waiting for there loved one to join them.but the fun part is that you can fly.walk though walls and stuff.so you can travel at speeds faster than light and explore the universe.you could be anywhere in the universe.anytime you want.so heaven is like going to the moon.and seeing the first landing site for yourself.going to pluto to see if there's water on the polar caps.checking out the crab nebula.thats heaven to me.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by FZ+
Heaven is oblivion.
Yes, a freedom from responsbilities. Without time and suffering. Without guilt and temptation. Without regret.

To die forever would be heaven. Anything else, anything with a semblence of immortality can only be hell in disguise.

Hey FZ+... I've never seen this side of you! Are you related to Dickens or Wordsworth or someone!?

I can relate... I don't know if you've read Anne Rice and her trilogy of books exploring the possiblities of being a Vampire.

Briefly I'll point out that one of a very few of her characters, Lestat the Vampire, got so powerful that nothing could kill him... absolutely nothing. Not the traditional Sunlight (fries vampires usually) not the traditional stake in the heart... not any of the usual methods. He could not even starve to death.

So... he realized... he was truly immortal and alone among his peers and the mortals. Sort of like a rock.

In fact... 30 billion years from now, when the Sun goes supernova... Lestat will be basking in the blast... then looking for another planet to hang out on.

Sounds a bit like hell to me. Interesting though.

 

[quantumcarl]

Here's an explanation from me that I believe belongs in both the Heaven and the Hell poll threads... it also explains why I voted for the "state of being" option in both.

Two people are doing exactly the same task.

Person One:

does the task in such a manner that they are sweating, swearing, complaining and causing the excretion of hormones that cause the person to exhibit the symptoms above... ie: frustration, over-exhertion, struggle... heart palipatation... general, emotional, egotistical, personal involvement with the details of the task.

Person Two:

does the task in such a manner that no one even knows about it.
they breath easily... they enjoy the task... they have fun with it... they are involved only to the point that the task is done precisely and correctly. Pride/ego/emotion is not an issue in doing the task since these attributes are not required to do the task... perhaps afterwards (satisfaction)... but not during.

What state is the Person One attracting or manifesting?

What state is Person Two attracting or manifesting?

Here's an experience I had with this type of situation.


I was 15 at the time working as a forest ranger's assistant in a huge natural wilderness park far away from everything.


I was working with this old guy...one of the crew who was about age 60. We were in the bottom of a hole we had excavated for a septic tank. The old guy never sweat during his work. He rarely breathed very heavily. He could lift a 200 pound boulder over his head, out of the hole... yet, at the time, I did not discern a muscle on his entire body. He was a Tibetian buddist or something... I don't remember... but his demeanor... his attitude was fascinating. Such serenity I have rarely encountered since.

He seemed to be in Heaven... or a state of Nirvana.

This man never complained... never once. We lived together in various conditions, cabins, tents...etc... I never saw him eat... though he could not have resisted the canned moose meat from another of the crew members.

Keeping it short... any number of the crew members who came through our camp were complainers, screamers, and ego maniacs... comparing their work to others... bragging... swashbuckling around and getting fired in most cases.

I kept my head down and went after Nirvana with the old guy.

 

[Iacchus32]

Vision of Marital Love

Heavenly vision of Marital Love by http://www.swedenborg.com/" ...

One morning I looked upward and saw above me successive heavenly spheres. Soon I heard a voice from above which said: "We have sensed and now see that you are meditating regarding marital love. As we are aware that no one on Earth knows what the origin and nature of marital love is, and it is important that it should be known, it has pleased the Lord that heaven be opened to you in order that illumination might flow into the interior of your mind. We shall now, as we are permitted, send down a married couple for you to observe."

Then a carriage appeared descending from the third or highest heaven. In it I saw one angel. As it approached I perceived two in it. At a distance the carriage glittered like a diamond and was drawn by a span of colts as white as snow. The occupants called to me, "Do you wish us to come closer? Then take care that the brilliance which surrounds us from our heaven does not strike you too strongly. Take what you see and hear according to your understanding and interpret it according to your mentality and insight!"

So they came and I recognized that they were husband and wife. And they said: "We are consorts and have lived happily in the heaven of the earliest of Earth's inhabitants continually from the golden age, into which you now see." I watched and became conscious of their symbolization of marital love, by their appearance, their garments and their jewelry; for all angels are human embodiments of love. Their dominant instincts shine from their faces and they adorn themselves accordingly. So they say in heaven: The affection of each one clothes him. The husband appeared to be of an age between youth and adulthood. The light of loving wisdom shone from his eyes. His whole face was one of shining comeliness. He wore an ankle-length robe of hyacinth blue. The appearance of the wife seemed to me even more lavish. The flaming light from her eyes dazzled me and I was dumbfounded.

When she observed this she asked, "What do you see?" I answered, "I see only marital love, but now I see it and then not!" She then turned obliquely from her husband and I could observe her better. Her eyes sparkled with the bright light of her heaven derived from the love of wisdom. Her hair was decked with a diadem of flowers. She wore a flowery red robe and a purple bodice fastened with rubies. The gems varied in shade as she glanced toward her husband. As she looked toward him the brilliance of her jewels was stronger and faded as she turned away. After I had observed her for a time, they spoke with each other. When the husband spoke he seemed to do so simultaneously from his wife and when she spoke she seemed to do so from her husband; such was the harmony of their thoughts. I sensed in their voices the tones of marital love arising from their joy in their state of peace and innocence. Finally they said: "We are recalled and must leave you." Then I watched them depart in their carriage, and as they neared their heaven they were met by young women who escorted them in.

From the booklet, Sex, Eros, Marital Love, available through the http://www.swedenborg.com/"

 

[Royce]

Great story, quantumcarl, and great post. I now know what heaven really is.
Thanks

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by Royce
Great story, quantumcarl, and great post. I now know what heaven really is.
Thanks

Don't take my word for it. It's something you need to experience for yourself. Some have said it's a thousand day climb to get there. For me it was more like 24,000 miles.

 

[megashawn]

Yes, its very cool. Actually, the guy i mentioned before, Stu Wilde, says Heaven is WARM. He also has discerned that Hell is as cold as H E double toothpicks. There are some physics involved in his arrival at these conclusions... but i don't remember them well.

I think this is a link to what your talking about.


http://www.cive.wustl.edu/~warmka/hell.html

 

[kyle_soule]

http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Resources/about_the_temperature_of_hell.htm

More in depth, also gives tempatures.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by kyle_soule
http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/Resources/about_the_temperature_of_hell.htm

More in depth, also gives tempatures.

This is the Heaven thread guys. If you find some literature on temperatures in Heaven... feel free to post them here!

 

[BoulderHead]

http://agora.rdrop.com/~jimka/text/heaven.html

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Let me ask you this? Do you dream in three dimensions? Or, is that just illusory? Don't our dreams also reflect our state of mind and being?

If we can do it in our dreams, which is merely an introduction to the spiritual world, then why not even more so in heaven?

Since we are dead, and therefore have no more conscious experiences.
Conscious experiences stop when we die. Not immediately perhaps, but like fading out.

 

[heusdens]

Originally posted by quantumcarl
This is the Heaven thread guys. If you find some literature on temperatures in Heaven... feel free to post them here!

Yeah. What about a weather forecast for heaven and hell?

Weather forecast for heaven: nice weather for all of eternity.
Hell: Terribbly hot, for all of eternity.

Would be an easy job, weather forecasting heaven and hell. And nobody will ever complain about it!

 

[kyle_soule]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Let me ask you this? Do you dream in three dimensions? Or, is that just illusory? Don't our dreams also reflect our state of mind and being?

If we can do it in our dreams, which is merely an introduction to the spiritual world, then why not even more so in heaven?

As heusdens said, consciousness ends after death, ultimately the end of our minds, at least physical minds anyhow. Our mind is the means by which we interpret the spatial and time dimensions, without a mind to "see" these dimensions, we are unable to determine if they indeed exist.

As for the idea of dreaming in three dimensions, we certainly do dream in three dimensions, as it is only an interpretation of the world (or in dreams case thoughts) around us.

All of this is in light of our still living conscious mind. Without this we have no interpretation of anything. Unless your soul has a means by which it can see dimensions, there is no way Heaven could be, and if it was it would be a waste of dimensions, three (or multi) dimensional. I think one dimension is plenty to describe a state of being, not necessarily a living/conscious state.

In fact, as you said Iacchus32, there is no way to describe Heaven without our current way of percieving, but tell me, if a child was born into a world with only two dimensions, would he be able to adequately describe his world, at a later age?

 

[Iacchus32]

Dreams and Spirits

I hope this addresses some of what you're discussing here ...


From the thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=611&perpage=15&pagenumber=2" ...

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Yes, but where do we go when we dream? Now that's a whole new world (dimension) unto itself. It's not tangible in the sense that we can see it or touch it, at least in this world, and yet we've all been there ... Is it possible this is where we go when we die?

Originally posted by Iacchus32
Who are we and what are we in relationship to that which we dream about? I know for me there's always some sort of interaction going on, and it's hard to believe it's merely a by-product of some electro-chemical process going on in the brain. What are these other so-called "enitities" experiencing when they experience me? It's like I had always been there, and yet separate, as if I were a separate entity. Which, is pretty much the way I experience them.

And yet there are times when I become more concsious in this state and I say, "By the way, I haven't died yet." And they all look at me with puzzled faces and say, "What do mean? It's always been this way. This is it man (reality)." And it's about this time that I begin to wake up, and realize that I'm laying in bed, and there they are still looking at me! And I say, "Hey, I tried to explain it you!" Soon after they would all depart and I would go back to my being unaware of them.

This is the best indication I can give for now that a spiritual world does exist.

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by Iacchus32
I hope this addresses some of what you're discussing here ...


From the thread, https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=611&perpage=15&pagenumber=2" ...


This is the best indication I can give for now that a spiritual world does exist.

I wonder if there is a law that says "if it exists, it always has".? That would imply heaven in some ways. The idea seems to apply to energy... "neither created nor destroyed".

Heaven is equated with forever... so that's why I've suggested the above (no pun intended).

 

[quantumcarl]

Why does heaven have gates?

 

[iron~orchid]

To give the gate-keepers something to lean against while they wait !

 

[quantumcarl]

Originally posted by iron~orchid
To give the gate-keepers something to lean against while they wait !

I guess heaven is good for that... heaven can wait!

then there's the gates of hell to contemplate. The only hell's gate I know of has a fish ladder to help the horny salmon get to the "next level". Happy trails!