243.12.5.27 - Verify vector identiy

  • Context: MHB 
  • Thread starter Thread starter karush
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Vector
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around verifying a vector identity related to points in three-dimensional space, specifically examining the conditions under which a set of points forms a sphere. Participants explore the mathematical formulation of the problem, including vector representations and dot products, and seek to derive the center and radius of the sphere defined by the given equation.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests expressing the directed line segments in component form to facilitate calculations.
  • Another participant questions the initial equation provided, proposing an alternative formulation that may be more accurate.
  • Several participants discuss the properties of the dot product and its implications for the problem at hand.
  • There is a suggestion that the vector magnitude should be squared, which some participants find makes the problem more straightforward.
  • One participant derives an equation involving the coordinates of points and attempts to relate it to the standard equation of a sphere.
  • Another participant proposes completing the square on the derived equation to find the center and radius of the sphere.
  • There is a discussion about defining the points in a more general context, allowing for arbitrary distinct points in space.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the radius and clarify the relationship between the derived equation and the standard form of a sphere.
  • A later reply generalizes the problem, leading to a more abstract formulation of the identity involving arbitrary points.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the initial formulation of the equation and its implications. While some agree on the approach to derive the sphere's properties, there is no consensus on the correctness of the initial equation or the interpretation of the radius.

Contextual Notes

Participants note potential typos and ambiguities in the problem statement, which may affect the interpretation of the vector identity. The discussion includes various assumptions about the definitions and properties of the vectors involved, which remain unresolved.

karush
Gold Member
MHB
Messages
3,240
Reaction score
5
$\textsf{Write a complete solution.}\\$
$\textit{ok Let A be the point (1,2,3) and O the origin (0, 0, 0). }\\$
$\textit{Consider the points P (x, y, z) such that AP · OP − OA · OP = 2 − |OA|2.}\\$
$\textit{Show that the set of all such points is a sphere, and find its center and radius.}\\$

ok, will be dealing with this in the morning
but would like some suggestions?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Re: 243.12.5.27

I would begin by expressing the given directed line segments in component form:

$$\vec{AP}=\left\langle x-1,y-2,z-3 \right\rangle$$

$$\vec{OP}=\left\langle x,y,z \right\rangle$$

$$\vec{OA}=\left\langle 1,2,3 \right\rangle$$

And then:

$$\left|\vec{OA}\right|=\sqrt{1^2+2^2+3^2}=\sqrt{14}$$

Now, consider the definition of the dot product:

$$\text{a}\cdot\text{b}=\sum_{k=1}^n\left(a_kb_k\right)$$

Can you proceed?
 
Re: 243.12.5.27

Are you certain the given equation isn't:

$$\vec{AP}\cdot\vec{OP}-\vec{OA}\cdot\vec{OP}=2-\left|\vec{OA}\right|^2$$ ?

On a side note, can you generalize such that $O$ and $A$ are arbitrary distinct points in the space?
 
Re: 243.12.5.27

View attachment 7333

$\textsf{the dot product $u\cdot v$ of vectors $u=\langle u_1, u_2, u_3 \rangle$}$
$\textsf{and $v=\langle u_1, u_2, u_3 \rangle$ is}$
$$u\cdot v=u_1v_1+u_2v_2+u_3v_3$$
 

Attachments

  • 243.12.5.27.PNG
    243.12.5.27.PNG
    8.1 KB · Views: 162
Re: 243.12.5.27

I suspected that vector magnitude was to be squared...makes for a nicer problem. ;)
 
Re: 243.12.5.27

$\displaystyle \vec{AP}\cdot\vec{OP}-\vec{OA}\cdot\vec{OP}=2-\left|\vec{OA}\right|^2$
so since
$\displaystyle \vec{AP}=\left\langle x-1,y-2,z-3 \right\rangle$
$\displaystyle \vec{OP}=\left\langle x,y,z \right\rangle$
$\displaystyle \vec{OA}=\left\langle 1,2,3 \right\rangle$
then
\begin{align}
&\, \, \, \, \, \, \left\langle x-1,y-2,z-3 \right\rangle \cdot \left\langle x,y,z \right\rangle
-\left\langle 1,2,3 \right\rangle \cdot \left\langle x,y,z \right\rangle\\
&=[(x-1)x+(y-1)y+(z-3)z]-[x+2y+3z]\\
&=x^2-x+y^2-y+z^2-3z-x-2y-3z\\
&1^2-1+2^2-2+3^2-3(3)-1-2(2)-3(3)=\color{red}{ -12}
\end{align}
and also
\begin{align}
2-\left|\vec{OA}\right|^2=2-14=\color{red}{ -12}
\end{align}
the standard equation of a sphere is
$(x - h)^2 + (y - j)^2 + (z - k)^2 = r^2$
$\textbf{so |OP|^2=14=radius}$
$\textit{not sure about the radius??}$
 
Last edited:
Re: 243.12.5.27

Let's look at where you should have:

$$x^2-2x+y^2-4y+z^2-6z=-12$$

Hint: Try completing the square on $x,\,y,\,z$. To better appreciate this problem, I do recommend exploring the more general problem I spoke of in post #3.
 
Re: 243.12.5.27

MarkFL said:
Let's look at where you should have:

$$x^2-2x+y^2-4y+z^2-6z=-12$$

Hint: Try completing the square on $x,\,y,\,z$. To better appreciate this problem, I do recommend exploring the more general problem I spoke of in post #3.
\begin{align*}\displaystyle
&x^2-2x+y^2-4y+z^2-6z=-12\\
&x^2-2x+1+y^2-4y+4+z^2-6z×9\\
&=-12+1+4+9=2\\
&(x-1)^2+(y-2)^2+(z-3)^2\\
&=2\\
&=(\sqrt{2})^2
\end{align*}

radius=2
 
Last edited:
Re: 243.12.5.27

karush said:
\begin{align*}\displaystyle
x^2-2x+y^2-4y+z^2-6z&=-12\\
x^2-2x+1+y^2-4y+4+z^2-6z×9&=-12+1+4+9=2\\
(x-1)^2+(y-2)^2+(z-3)^2&=2=(\sqrt{x})^2
\end{align*}

so is $\sqrt{2}$ the radius?

Yes, and I assume this is just a typo, but you want:

$$(x-1)^2+(y-2)^2+(z-3)^2=2=\left(\sqrt{2}\right)^2$$

Now, suppose we define:

$$\left(x_A,y_A,z_A\right)$$ = point $A$

$$\left(x_O,y_O,z_O\right)$$ = point $O$

And so we have:

$$\vec{AP}=\left\langle x-x_A,y-y_A,z-z_A \right\rangle$$

$$\vec{OP}=\left\langle x-x_O,y-y_O,z-z_O \right\rangle$$

$$\vec{OA}=\left\langle x_A-x_O,y_A-y_O,z_A-z_O \right\rangle$$

And then:

$$\left|\vec{OA}\right|=\sqrt{\left(x_A-x_O\right)^2+\left(y_A-y_O\right)^2+\left(z_A-z_O\right)^2}$$

Now suppose the given equation is:

$$\vec{AP}\cdot\vec{OP}-\vec{OA}\cdot\vec{OP}=k-\left|\vec{OA}\right|^2$$ where $0<k$

We then find:

$$\left(\left(x-x_A\right)\left(x-x_O\right)+\left(y-y_A\right)\left(y-y_O\right)+\left(z-z_A\right)\left(z-z_O\right)\right)-\left(\left(x_A-x_O\right)\left(x-x_O\right)+\left(y_A-y_O\right)\left(y-y_O\right)+\left(z_A-z_O\right)\left(z-z_O\right)\right)=k-\left(\left(x_A-x_O\right)^2+\left(y_A-y_O\right)^2+\left(z_A-z_O\right)^2\right)$$

After some algebra, this becomes:

$$\left(x-\left(x_A+x_O\right)\right)^2+\left(y-\left(y_A+y_O\right)\right)^2+\left(z-\left(z_A+z_O\right)\right)^2=\left(\sqrt{k}\right)^2$$

And hence, the given equation describes a sphere with center $$\left(x_A+x_O,y_A+y_O,z_A+z_O\right)$$ and radius $\sqrt{k}$. :)
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
5K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K