3 Fundamental questions must be answered.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the validity of evolution as a scientific theory, specifically questioning the mechanisms of abiogenesis, the role of genetic mutations, and the definition of information in genetics. Participants explore these topics through various claims and counterclaims, focusing on theoretical and conceptual aspects rather than empirical evidence.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that science has not provided a mechanism for inanimate chemicals to create reproducing living organisms, suggesting this undermines the status of evolution as a fact.
  • Others counter that the existence of life implies that such a mechanism is possible, even if not yet understood.
  • There are claims that random genetic mutations are invariably harmful, while other participants assert that useful mutations are frequently observed and can increase genetic information.
  • Some participants challenge the notion that mutations cannot add information, citing examples where genetic parts can replicate and change, thereby increasing the genome's complexity.
  • One participant mentions a specific mutation that combats sickle cell anemia as an example of a mutation that is not harmful but involves a loss of information.
  • Discussions also touch on the definition of complexity and information, with calls for a quantitative measure of complexity to facilitate comparisons.
  • References to experimental observations of evolution in laboratory settings are made to support claims of evolutionary processes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit significant disagreement on the interpretation of genetic mutations, the implications for evolution, and the definitions of key terms like "information" and "complexity." No consensus is reached on these issues.

Contextual Notes

Participants express differing views on the relationship between abiogenesis and evolution, the nature of genetic mutations, and the measurement of complexity and information in genetics. These discussions highlight the complexity and nuance of the topics involved, with unresolved definitions and assumptions present.

Evoskeptic
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There is much talk and armwaving about evolution being a fact.
However until these three questions can be answered it is not yet time to drop the word 'theory' and replace it with 'fact'.
Anyone like to put me right?

1 Science has not been able to provide a mechanism that will enable inanimate chemicals to spontaneously combine to create a reproducing living organism.
2 Random genetic mutations are invariably harmful and even if not cannot add new information to the genome thus increasing its complexity.
3 Science has not yet been able to show a genetic mutation that does in fact add information to the genome.
 
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"Theory" is a name for the best thing science can ever have. It is different from the everyday usage of "theory", which would be similar to a "hypothesis" in science.

1 Science has not been able to provide a mechanism that will enable inanimate chemicals to spontaneously combine to create a reproducing living organism.
That has nothing to do with evolution.

2 Random genetic mutations are invariably harmful
Wrong. Useful mutations are observed frequently.
and even if not cannot add new information to the genome thus increasing its complexity.
There are genetic parts which can copy themself, thereby increasing the length of the genome. Let one of those copies change, and you increased the stored information. "Complexity" is a bad measurement.
3 Science has not yet been able to show a genetic mutation that does in fact add information to the genome.
See above.
 
mfb said:
"Theory" is a name for the best thing science can ever have. It is different from the everyday usage of "theory", which would be similar to a "hypothesis" in science.

That has nothing to do with evolution.

Wrong. Useful mutations are observed frequently.
There are genetic parts which can copy themself, thereby increasing the length of the genome. Let one of those copies change, and you increased the stored information. "Complexity" is a bad measurement.
See above.

Question 1 You may feel that it has nothing to do with evilolution but without it evolution is dead in the water so to speak.

There is one frequently quoted gentic mutation that is not harmful in fact it combats sickel cell anemia but it is a LOSS of information. I suggest that you swot up on what is meant by information. You do not increase information by adding the same instructions multiple time. That's like readding a book with 12 chapters all copies of chapter 1.
Complexity is only a bad word for those who are in denial of its existence.

You need to try again.
 
Evoskeptic said:
Question 1 You may feel that it has nothing to do with evilolution but without it evolution is dead in the water so to speak.
It would be dead if it would be impossible to get life from non-living things. But it is known to be possible, as life exists. Just the question "how" is not solved (yet).
There is one frequently quoted gentic mutation that is not harmful in fact it combats sickel cell anemia but it is a LOSS of information.
E. coli long-term evolution experiment
Evolution has been observed in the lab.
You do not increase information by adding the same instructions multiple time.
Sure, but you increase it if one of those copies changes afterwards.
Complexity is only a bad word for those who are in denial of its existence.
Please give a quantitative definition of complexity, to allow the comparison you want to see.
Entropy (as measurement of information content) has a clear definition, can we use this? Entropy of genetic material can increase.
You need to try again.
I do not need to do anything.
 
EvoSkeptic, we only deal with valid mainstream science here, the creationist crackpot/ID tactics you tried here have been debunked ad nauseum.

Thanks mfb for putting up with it.
 

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