5 watt radial turbine design - I need conceptual help

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the design of a radial turbine intended to generate 5 watts from compressed air at high RPMs. Participants explore various approaches to turbine design, manufacturing considerations, and the challenges associated with achieving the desired efficiency and cost targets.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Mike seeks guidance on designing a radial turbine that operates efficiently at 20,000 to 40,000 RPM using compressed air.
  • APC offers assistance and inquires about the purpose of the turbine design, suggesting that the intended use may influence the design approach.
  • Mike clarifies that the turbine is intended for a system operating in a harsh electromagnetic environment, aiming to eliminate electrical interconnects.
  • APC mentions the possibility of using a 2D turbine design and offers to provide necessary dimensions based on their experience.
  • Mike expresses concern about the cost of turbines available on the market, indicating a target price range that has not been met by existing options.
  • Another participant suggests that making micro turbines may require DIY methods, mentioning chemical etching as a potential low-cost solution.
  • This participant also notes that while 5 watts is a small power requirement, the cost of generators tends to be higher than expected.
  • Mike, identifying as an electrical engineer, expresses confidence in managing the generator aspect but seeks advice on bearing and vibration management for durability.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to turbine design or manufacturing methods. Multiple competing views on design strategies and cost considerations remain evident throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various manufacturing techniques, including 2D turbine designs and chemical etching, but do not resolve the feasibility or effectiveness of these methods. There is also uncertainty regarding the availability of suitable turbines and the challenges of achieving the desired cost and performance metrics.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to engineers and designers involved in turbine technology, particularly those focused on small-scale applications and cost-effective manufacturing methods.

Mike_In_Plano
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I'm looking to design a radial turbine to deliver 5 watts from compressed air (60-90psi) at 20,000 to 40,000 RPM. 30% efficiency would be suitable.

I reviewed related patents-got little from them. I also reviewed my college textbooks, but they address incompressible, momentum transfer problems.

Any suggestions on how to approach this sort of problem?


Mike
 
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I could probably help. Still need help?
 
Yes, thank you, APC.
This is an old thread, and I had almost given up hope. I welcome your input.

- Mike
 
Were you looking to just design one for the sake of it, or designing one to actually manufacture?

I ask because that will probably determine whether you should go with a 2D or 3D turbine. Google mit micro turbine for an example of a 2D turbine.

Let me know, I have written code and could easily just give you the necessary dimensions necessary.
 
Thanks APC,

My need is for a turbine / generator to function as part of a system that operates in a harsh electromagnetic environment. My rational is that the power could be supplied via the house compressed air, doing away with the need for electrical interconnects.

I've intended to move the product into low volume production (100-200/yr) and it would be great if I could find a turbine on the shelf for 250-$350, but the best I've found was more than $1K. At this point, I'm not certain whether such cost targets could be met.

As far as the geometry, it would be great to have something easy to machine and assemble. My favorite machine shop doesn't have 5 axis equipment. As to balancing, I could probably build a fixture to strobe it - if needed

I can't express just how appreciative I am that you've taken an interest in this work. It's frustrating to have proceeded so far and be forced to stop over just one item...

Best Wishes,

- Mike
 
I'm not familiar with where you can purchase your own micro turbines. You would probably have to make them yourself for the time being.

A cheap low quality solution is to chemically etch stainless steel.

http://www.micromark.com/MICRO-MARK-PRO-ETCH-PHOTO-ETCH-SYSTEM,8346.html

to get 2D turbines that look like this

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/astmp98/figv10.gif

Also, 5 watts is an absurdly small amount of power. Make the turbines is very cheap in this way, but the generators are always the expensive part.

We've used DC brushless motors before that run in reverse from companies such as Faulhaber and Maxon Motor. Although getting appropriate bearings and the shaft link is not as easy as you would think.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The etching is a cool concept. I thought machining of laser cutting were the only viable options. I'll still need to get a geometry,

As for a generator, I'm not too worried. I'm a EE that's designed several Brushless controllers, and using them for efficient generators is duck soup. I just need to manage the bearings and vibration so that it lasts.

Any ideas?

-Mike
 

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