824 New Armored Humvees sitting in lot in Kuwait

[russ_watters]

Did anyone bother to read the article? Anyone care to comment on what it says?

 

[kat]

you mean like this portion:

Harvey and Cody said the service had decided to keep the new humvees parked in Kuwait until January, when the vehicles would be taken over by arriving troops from the 4th Infantry Division, currently training at Fort Hood, Texas. Before promising to take another look at the plan, the Army officials defended the timetable as the most efficient use of the equipment and troops, adding that it had been approved by U.S. commanders in Iraq.

Cody added that the new humvees are so technically advanced that 3rd Infantry Division troops would have to train on them for up to two weeks. Commanders were reluctant to relinquish their troops for training at time when they have pressing missions, he said, such as providing security for Iraqi elections.

Another case of politicians second guessing commanders on the ground?

 

[Skyhunter]

Business as usual has an irony here. The Armor Holdings factory that manufactures the humvee armor plate, is located in Summit county Ohio. Summit county Ohio is also the home of Diebold.

Ohio is a microcosm of the Republican cronyism and corruption that is now being exposed on a national scale. Before this is over Bush's ratings may match that of the Republican governor of Ohio. Last I heard 17 out of 100 approved of his job performance.

My brother-in-law went to work for a start-up company installing networks for the government. The head of the company had political ties so they got inflated contracts to install networks for the State, until the boss got drunk and went on a rampage. He was arrested for domestic violence and his "friends found it to be expedient to dis-associate themselves from him so he lost the contracts. Since that was about the companies only revenue they went belly up.

 

[Skyhunter]

you mean like this portion:

Harvey and Cody said the service had decided to keep the new humvees parked in Kuwait until January, when the vehicles would be taken over by arriving troops from the 4th Infantry Division, currently training at Fort Hood, Texas. Before promising to take another look at the plan, the Army officials defended the timetable as the most efficient use of the equipment and troops, adding that it had been approved by U.S. commanders in Iraq.
Cody added that the new humvees are so technically advanced that 3rd Infantry Division troops would have to train on them for up to two weeks. Commanders were reluctant to relinquish their troops for training at time when they have pressing missions, he said, such as providing security for Iraqi elections.

Another case of politicians second guessing commanders on the ground?

I for one would like to know what could be so advanced that it takes 2 weeks to learn. But it is probably classified.

And I think the soldiers would rather have the armor than not.

135,000 troops and 1000 can't be spared to train on how to operate a glorified jeep?

Sounds like just another excuse for incompetence.

 

[kat]

I for one would like to know what could be so advanced that it takes 2 weeks to learn. But it is probably classified.
And I think the soldiers would rather have the armor than not.
135,000 troops and 1000 can't be spared to train on how to operate a glorified jeep?
Sounds like just another excuse for incompetence.

and now...it sounds to me like a civilian trying to second guess on the ground commanders.

 

[Gokul43201]

and now...it sounds to me like a civilian trying to second guess on the ground commanders.

kat, if the DoD did screw up, do you think we'd be likely to hear admissions of that from the commanders ?

 

[edward]

I for one would like to know what could be so advanced that it takes 2 weeks to learn. But it is probably classified.
And I think the soldiers would rather have the armor than not.
135,000 troops and 1000 can't be spared to train on how to operate a glorified jeep?
Sounds like just another excuse for incompetence.

I just love the excuses that upper level DOD and Rumsfeld come up with.

The new Humvees come with the same safety upgrades that will later be installed in existing vehicles. Those upgrades are listed below.

From DefenceTalk.com

Land Forces
Army Continues New Humvee Safety Upgrades
By US Army

URL of this article: http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/printer_3462.php
Tue, 20 Sep 2005, 09:15



CAMP ARIFJAN, Kuwait: The Army is responding to the War Fighter’s request for new equipment to enhance combat operations and increase safety, by installing five upgrades to Humvees at forward repair sites in Southwest Asia.

Pentagon officials quickly approved adding: a fire suppression system, improved seat restraints, an intercom system, a gunner’s restraint, and single movement door locks for all Humvees in Iraq.

Initially, the upgrades will be installed in Humvees, but the Army is adapting some of the new equipment to other medium and heavy tactical vehicles.

Adding intercom systems to tactical vehicles with turret gun mounts will improve Soldiers’ ability to communicate when under fire, officials said.

The two week training period is total garbage talk.

 

[Gokul43201]

Ohio is a microcosm of the Republican cronyism and corruption that is now being exposed on a national scale. Before this is over Bush's ratings may match that of the Republican governor of Ohio. Last I heard 17 out of 100 approved of his job performance.

Close. <sorry for the brief digression>

http://www.10tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3926685

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) - Gov. Bob Taft's already-feeble approval rating among Ohioans has fallen to 15 percent, a new poll indicates.

The poll, conducted by The Columbus Dispatch, finds support for Taft lower than the three most unpopular U.S. presidents in the history of polling and possibly the lowest of any Ohio governor.

The Republican governor's approval rating is worse than that of President Truman after he fired Gen. Douglas MacArthur, President Carter during the Iran hostage crisis or President Nixon during Watergate.

Taft was convicted in August of four misdemeanor ethics convictions for failing to report gifts and golf outings and has presided over the state's wide-ranging investment scandal. Three-fourths of the respondents who identified themselves as Republicans disapproved of Taft's performance.

Getting back to the humvees : anyone remember in Dec 2004 when Tennessee Army National Guard Spc. Tom Wilson asked Rumsfeld (in Kuwait) why the Army didn't have enough reinforced Humvees, Rumsfeld replied : "You go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time." That left a very sour taste in many people's mouths.

Up to this time, the Army had been working for over a year, to gradually increase the number of armored Humvees in Iraq. But Rumsfeld's encounter with Wilson seems to have helped enormously : a couple of days later, on Dec. 10, the Army asked the company producing factory-armored Humvees to boost its production by more than 20%.

Coincidence ?

 

[kat]

Edward, it appears to me that in one instance we are speaking of new humvees and then in your last quote we are talking of new upgrades to old humvees.

 

[edward]

Edward, it appears to me that in one instance we are speaking of new humvees and then in your last quote we are talking of new upgrades to old humvees.

The new humvees sitting dormant in Kuwait came from the factory with the upgrades. All or portions of the upgrades will be installed on existing vehicles when they are pulled out of service and transported to Kuwait for repairs in civilian operated facilities.

 

[GENIERE]

When the commanders in Somalia asked for Bradley Fighting Vehicles, the Clinton Administration turned them down.

This led to a mission involving jeeps and other available transportation, that led to marines being trapped in a village, that led to a rescue mission involving a Blackhawk helicopter that was shot down, that led to Clinton to do what he does so well i.e., cut, run, and make a speech.

 

[edward]

When the commanders in Somalia asked for Bradley Fighting Vehicles, the Clinton Administration turned them down.
This led to a mission involving jeeps and other available transportation, that led to marines being trapped in a village, that led to a rescue mission involving a Blackhawk helicopter that was shot down, that led to Clinton to do what he does so well i.e., cut, run, and make a speech.

That has nothing to do with humvees in Iraq. It is also totally oranges and apples. How long do you conservatives feel it will be necessary for you to go keep bringing up Clinton as an excuse for the current administrations five year long list falilures? You are the same people who called operation Desert Fox, "wagging the dog."

 

[Townsend]

That has nothing to do with humvees in Iraq. It is also totally oranges and apples. How long do you conservatives feel it will be necessary for you to go keep bringing up Clinton as an excuse for the current administrations five year long list falilures? You are the same people who called operation Desert Fox, "wagging the dog."

What does "wagging the dog" mean?

 

[edward]

What does "wagging the dog" mean?

The expression came from a movie and was applied to Clinton because he was about to face impeachment.

Less than two weeks before election day, a scandal erupts that threatens to cripple the President's bid for a second term. But before the incident can cause irreparable damage, a mysterious fixer is called to the White House. The ultimate spin doctor, Conrad Brean (Robert DeNiro) has the uncanny ability to manipulate politics, the press and most importantly, the American people.

http://www.newline.com/sites/wagthedog/Story/index.html
Operation Desert Fox was a success despite the criticism.

 

[Townsend]

The expression came from a movie and was applied to Clinton because he was about to face impeachment.

But what does it mean?

Operation Desert Fox was a success despite the criticism.

I know...I was with http://www.lemoore.navy.mil/vfa-94/ at the time.

After a very short turnaround, the Mighty Shrikes found themselves flying in Southern Iraq enforcing the NO FLY ZONE. The Mighty Shrikes were key participants in Operation VIGILANT SENTINEL. In October 1995, the squadron transferred to USS KITTY HAWK under the direction of Commander, Cruiser-Destroyer Group FIVE. Following another short turnaround training cycle, the Mighty Shrikes deployed aboard USS KITTY HAWK on 10 October 1996 to the Arabian Gulf in support of Operation SOUTHERN WATCH. On 13 May 1997, the Mighty Shrikes transferred to USS CARL VINSON (CVN-70) under the direction of Commander, Carrier Group THREE. The Mighty Shrikes deployed aboard USS CARL VINSON on 10 November 1998 to the Arabian Gulf in support of Operations DESERT FOX and SOUTHERN WATCH.

 

[edward]

But what does it mean?
I know...I was with http://www.lemoore.navy.mil/vfa-94/ at the time.

It means that the tail wags the dog. It was the actual name of the movie about a prez who was in trouble.

WOW you were there, you just gained a big chunk of my respect.

 

[Townsend]

WOW you were there, you just gained a big chunk of my respect.

It's not that big of a deal really...it was life as usual for the most part except that the jets would leave with much more ordinance and the operational tempo was much higher. The only exciting thing that happened was when the Tomcat squadron in our air wing –cag 11- engaged the Iraq fighters and launched the phoenix missiles at them.

From what I understand, the missiles did not even get a chance to hit their targets because the Iraqi fighters took off, burned up all their fuel, and crashed trying to get away.

 

[edward]

It's not that big of a deal really...it was life as usual for the most part except that the jets would leave with much more ordinance and the operational tempo was much higher. The only exciting thing that happened was when the Tomcat squadron in our air wing –cag 11- engaged the Iraq fighters and launched the phoenix missiles at them.

From what I understand, the missiles did not even get a chance to hit their targets because the Iraqi fighters took off, burned up all their fuel, and crashed trying to get away.

 

[Townsend]

Why do I get the feeling you know more about this then you're letting on?

 

[FredGarvin]

When the commanders in Somalia asked for Bradley Fighting Vehicles, the Clinton Administration turned them down.
This led to a mission involving jeeps and other available transportation, that led to marines being trapped in a village, that led to a rescue mission involving a Blackhawk helicopter that was shot down, that led to Clinton to do what he does so well i.e., cut, run, and make a speech.

Ummm...that's not the course of events. The original operation was an attempt to grab one of the bigger warlords in the town during a daylight raid. That was the original problem. The whole debacle strted by incorrectly utilizing the units in country. Task Force 160 is a unit that trains and operates best at night (hence their nickname Nightstalkers) and so their tactics are best suited for night operations. That was where two UH-60's were shot down. The subsequent rescues then got messed up as the UN was the ones with armored vehicles and them having to rescue the rescuers.

You may now resume your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[edward]

Why do I get the feeling you know more about this then you're letting on?

I had heard about Desert Fox. I didn't know that the Iraqi fighters cut and run like that. It just struck me as typical of the Iraqi Air Force.

 

[Townsend]

I had heard about Desert Fox. I didn't know that the Iraqi fighters cut and run like that. It just struck me as typical of the Iraqi Air Force.

About 15 minutes later, when two other Iraqi MIG-25s dipped below the southern "no-fly" zone's 33rd parallel, two Navy F-14 Tomcats from the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, aware of the incident that had just occurred, fired two Phoenix missiles, the Navy's only long-range air-to-air missiles. The planes were near the town of Al Kut southwest of Baghdad.
Separately, and apparently unrelated to aerial engagements, an aging Iraqi MIG-23 crashed after it ran out of fuel, Pentagon officials said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/iraq/stories/nofly010699.htm

From what I have been told that is the only time the phoenix missile system has ever been used in combat. But who knows for sure.

 

[hitssquad]

a 7mm Remington [...] would probably kill you anyhow because all of those broken ribs

If you were wearing your kevlar vest and you fired your Remington with the butt against (or in front of) your ribs, would your ribs break?