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911 in 2008 - How has this changed us?

  1. Sep 10, 2008 #1

    Ivan Seeking

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    "Us" could mean in the US, the citizens of another country, or the global community.

    Anyone who has been around here for a time knows my feeling about this. I believe that the attack changed the US in ways that are fundamental - that for now, the terrorists have won. This is why we we have seen the use of and/or public debates about torture, tactical nukes, preemptive war, spying on US citizens, secret prisons, illegal incarceration, and generally a betrayal of the deepest and most significant, core American values. In the past, the US has certainly engaged in unacceptable activities, but in the past we have always appealed to the better angels in our nature. Since 911, we have sold out to fear.

    The irony is that by winning, the terrorists lose as well. If you want a far more dangerous world for everyone, then change the US. The terrorists attacked a few buidlings, and we countered by attacking two countries - one that had nothing to do with the attack. So hopefully the world will take note: Change the US and you have a very dangerous mad dog to deal with rather than a nation fundamentally dedicated to peace, and freedom for everyone.

    Help to find our way back to sanity. Don't let fear control your life. Vote Obama.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2008
  2. jcsd
  3. Sep 10, 2008 #2
    The terrorists didn't attack empty buildings. They killed 3,000 innocent civilians because of their retarded ideologies.
     
  4. Sep 10, 2008 #3

    Ivan Seeking

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    I think everyone realizes that there were people in those buidlings and aircrafts. Is your point that we should live in fear and throw out the Bill of Rights because 3000 people died? How many people in the US have died in auto accidents since then; about 280,000? Have we eliminated cars yet?

    We have the Constitution and The Bill of Rights to protect us from retarded ideologies, like those of our enemies. In fact, retarded ideologies are precisely why we have the Bill of Rights in particular. And those who have assaulted the Constitution are, through their own retarded ideology, a greater threat than the terrorists. We have the Republicans to thank for this. They are the ones who have allowed this, along with far too many Americans. But I am just as disgusted by the Democrats who went along with it. They should all be tossed out!

    "What is the greatest threat facing us now? People will say it's terrorism. But are there any terrorists in the world who can change the American way of life or our political system? No.... Only we can change ourselves. So what is the great threat we are facing?" - Colin Powell
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2008
  5. Sep 10, 2008 #4

    russ_watters

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    That appears to be what you think happened, but I don't know anyone who lives in fear and the Bill of Rights is still the Bill of Rights.
     
  6. Sep 10, 2008 #5
    I would replace live in fear, with live in ignorance. I've overhead a few people making ignorant comments about how we have to 'attack them over there' at random places around town back when the war in Iraq was intense and there were talks about including Iran.

    It's sad and disgusting to see fellow americans think they are experts in world politics with their simple minded logic and world view. Yeah, attack them there so they don't attack us here! :rolleyes: People REALLY do believe this nonsense.

    It's like the interview with Bill O'tool and Obama. He asked Obama would you define this as a war on terror? (STUPID question) Obama, "I would hunt down and kill Osama Bin Ladin" (STUPID answer). Americans - clap clap clap wow this is really great Q&A!

    It's pathetic, and moronic. The world isnt this simple, and these questions highlight American ignorance. Instead of taking the time to learn about the dynamics of the situation and current state of the world, lets just use one liners. Fight them there! Pull out of Iraq! For more years! Etc, etc, etc.....

    Here is what I've noticed about America vs. other countries. In other countries they remember things. If you do something to them, they hold a grudge. For a LONG time. Not so much here. Why? Because we are Myopic and have amnesia. We repeat the same mistakes, and it seem's the time span of repeating our mistakes is getting shorter and shorter. It's as if we dont learn a damn thing about mistakes made in the past when trying to solve problems in the future.

    Note: I dont want to come off as Anti-American, but I expect a whole lot more from the population of a wealthy superpower nation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2008
  7. Sep 10, 2008 #6

    cristo

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    I'm not sure that I would agree with you that countries other than the US hold a grudge, but if you think other countries remember things more than you, perhaps this is because the US, as a country, is so much younger than many other countries around the world. The more history you have, the more there is to remember.
     
  8. Sep 10, 2008 #7
    Said differently: There are more deep seeded dislikes. For example, you might say behind closed doors people in germany for example, dont like all the turks inflowing into their country.

    Whereas in the US, we really dont hate or dislike any one country since its by construction a melting pot of everyone.

    Of course, the irony in all this is that internally we hate eachother. Blacks, Jews, Gays, Atheists, spanish immigrants.

    The more I look around me as an American, the more blatant Hypocrisy I see. It's really getting to me lately.
     
  9. Sep 10, 2008 #8

    OmCheeto

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    Stop projecting! I've had "biblical knowledge" of all those "others", and of a few more........ :devil: :biggrin:

    Hence, I'm going to hell with the Quranic fanatics who broke all of the rules.

    But to get back on topic, no one in my family has changed due to 9/11, as far as I can tell anyways.

    We did, after all, finish painting my brothers living room the day it happened.

    We may be all Buddhists at heart. I don't know.
     
  10. Sep 10, 2008 #9
    We still have the Bill of Rights so I don't follow your point. Your analogy does not follow either because terrorists deliberately killed 3,000 people. Auto accidents are accidents.
     
  11. Sep 11, 2008 #10

    OmCheeto

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    I've heard that about 50,000 people die unnecessarily every day, mostly children, due to something or other.
    Since 9/11/01, by my calculations, that's at least 100,000,000 people.
    About a third of the population of the USA.

    I'm not surprised that little has changed.
     
  12. Sep 11, 2008 #11
    The point he was trying to make is that yes, 3,000 people were killed. But what was done as a result of this? Was there a well thought out plan? Who did this to us. Why did they do this? What can we do to avoid this in the future?

    What was the answer pushed by the repubicans? Because they hate our freedom. They hate our way of life. Um, no. Sorry. If you really think this, you ought to go watch some real news sources and listen to real people who know whats going on in the middle east.

    So, after asking these questions one then has to ask what is the appropriate reaction. Afghanistan was a good job. Then came Iraq that left everyone saying what the hell's going on? If you want, I can give you the episde of Charlie Rose with a four star general basically saying everything we did in iraq was flat out wrong. From the very notion of even going in there, to the execution. It was a big F'up. This isnt something to debate, its a well established FACT by many high ranking people in the government/military/intelligence services.

    So, 3,000 people were killed. What's that got to do with Iraq? The answer is absolutely nothing. To a limited extent, Sadam aided some terrorists (see. Hitchens on that point). But to the extent of invading the country on fabricated WMDs.....gimme a break.

    More focus and attention should have been spent in afghanistan.

    Back to my point about myopia and ignorance. What happened just after 9/11? People went running around beating up and killing sikhs because they wear a turban. Not muslim, and from a different country. Myopic: Did we learn nothing about how we treated the Japs during the war? Ignorant: do you even have any world view of different peoples/cultures?

    The behavior of americans right after 9/11 towards middle easterners is as dispicable to me as the terrorists ignorance to americans. A country that is a wealthy superpower should be educated enough to know better than act like this.

    If North Korea attack us today, I'd be out of my mind to go around finding and beating up/killing any asians I found on the streets.

    It's as disgraceful as letting a thousands of black people starve and drown to death after a major natural disaster.

    These are the problems you get when a society only cares about one liners and cheap political statements from politicians. An educated public would not stand for any of this, not in a million years. If we are to survive as a country and a superpower, people need to turn off their tv's, and start reading some books. Stop reading this christian fundamental garbage. If you want to believe in god, do it moderately. Read science, philosphy, literature, world history, art....Educate our minds as a nation. That what 9/11 should have taught us. We cant afford to be ignorant.

    What do we do instead? No stem cell research, no gay marriage, no teaching evolution. We learned nothing from 9/11. Sorry folks, nothing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2008
  13. Sep 11, 2008 #12
    They actually do hate our way of life. We are the infidels to them. Their goal is to rule the world with their retarded ideology. Yes, there are other factors involved, but that's the underlying foundation of their hate towards western civilization.

    You really can't make judgments on historical implications until about 20 years after the fact. The work for our next president is cut out for them. Make Iraq a sovereign nation and then get the hell out of there.

    I'm not exactly shedding tears over the death of Saddam. If it had come under any other context would people be weeping as much over his death?

    Troops are still in Afghanistan.

    Are you calling me ignorant? Yes, I agree with you that just mere days after 9/11 that people were overreacting by talking about nuking the entire Middle East. We shouldn't start hate campaigns on American citizens, let alone human beings, just because some ideological retards think blowing up buildings is going to progress their retarded ideology.
     
  14. Sep 11, 2008 #13
    No Lightbulb sun, no. They don't go around bombing most of the western world. How many terrorist attacks do you see in South America from middle eastern terrorist? Yes, you are infidels to them because by its very defnition it means 'non-believers'. So let's not blindly use that word without a proper context. Their goal is NOT to rule the world with their 'retarded ideology'. If you think so, please show me WHO is saying that. NO one i've seen on charlie rose that are experts has EVER said that. Had you taken the time to actually see what they said, they mainly are fighting you becaue they want you OUT of the middle east. (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Palestine). If you are going to make statements about terrorists, then you need to read up about them. Statements from FOX news doesnt cut it.

    Excuse me? I just told you four star generals and many top people in the government said this was a disaster from day 1. The invation even lack any basic plan of reconstruction after the overthrow of sadam. Come on people, let's not forget history THIS fast. The major turning point was the looting that went out of control and the raid of the baghdad museum.

    What do I care about whats cut out for the next president. It's got nothing to do with what I said. You're statements of one liners really need to be refined by more careful study of whats going on. Your statement in bold is pie in the sky meaningless.

    I'm not going to answer comments on things I did not say.


    And they were having problems with the Taliban regaining control of the country.


    No offense, but you are exactly what my post complains about. Simple logic on a complex problem. Your comments are NOT refined nor thoughtful. If you want to say 'ideological retards', and 'they hate our freedoms' then you really know almost nothing about the problem at hand. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but its the truth. By all means, go listen to some experts. Go watch some interviews on charlie rose. Watch Bob Woodward, watch generals, watch people from the CIA. Listen to what they had to say about the planing and events leading up to the war. These are not pundits. These are top poeple with security clearance.
     
  15. Sep 11, 2008 #14
    No Cyrus, no. You know the reason 9/11 happened was because Osama Bin Laden got food poisoning at a McDonalds. They don't want to dominate the world with their stupid religion. No, everything is fine as you've said. All you have to say to make it true is to say I got my comments from Fox News.

    And leaving Iraq as a war zone is beneficial to them, how?

    Right, solutions are meaningless. Who's using simple logic again?



    You implied that Saddam was a victim with your question of "what's Saddam got to do with 9/11?" That's was elicited my response.


    You're the one who's being so naive and drinking the kool aid. Saddam is a victim, and Islam doesn't want to dominate the world with their ideologies. Right dude. Kool Aid talk. It's as retarded as people saying "terrorists don't exist! They're just made to be boogeyman!" Again, right dude, right. Now all you have to do is tell me I got that from Fox News and then my comment will be fully debunked.

    Kool aid truth which is faux truth.
     
  16. Sep 11, 2008 #15
    In the years following 9-11, incidents of racism agains arabs specifically and muslims in generally were at the same basic rate as years preceeding 9-11. In fact, I recall a high rate of anti-semitic incidents in the southern states in the following years. Certainly even average joe public whom you seem to brand as less intelligent, know the difference between a Jew and a Muslim.

    As a fact, US citizens were NOT running around mobbing and lynching arabs. Isolated cases of racism against arabs and bigotry towards muslims were highlighted and ridiculed by most people.

    US Society as a whole did NOT vilify people from the middle east, in general.

    In the town I was in, the middle eastern coffee shops, two of which were owned and run by a guy named *Obama*, were open for business and their normal clientele was there, myself included.

    I dispute your use of the word "let". I also note that katrina affected more white folk, than black.

    Case in point.

    Well some of us learned something.
     
  17. Sep 11, 2008 #16

    LowlyPion

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    Unfortunately though, I think it's fair to say that blacks, or the poor if you prefer, as usual were adversely affected disproportionately more. Those poor likely predominate in the numbers displaced more than 6 months after and likely among those still displaced from the storm 3 years later.

    Making the point that Bush was merely equal opportunity in his administration's mishandling of relief and rescue efforts is hardly a useful distinction.
     
  18. Sep 11, 2008 #17
    I'll look into the statistics regarding the your comment that I snipped.

    But as for the comment I included. It certainly *is* a useful distinction since we were talking about racism.
     
  19. Sep 11, 2008 #18
    Ehh, it's lunchtime. But here's a source that does not appear to be blatantly conservative in bias. I'm sure I'll be told otherwise if I'm wrong. This article doesn't talk about property damage, but life lost.


    Data: Most Hurricane Katrina victims were not black
    http://www.scrippsnews.net/node/30871
     
  20. Sep 11, 2008 #19
  21. Sep 11, 2008 #20
    This statement has nothing to do with anything. It's simply your own misinformed opinion. I asked you what experts/terrorists themselves said they are trying to 'take over the world'.


    .........you're not very good at paying attention. I've made no reference to cut and run. I made statements about the leading up to and execution of the war. Please talk about what I am saying.

    No one said solutions are meaningless, except you just now. AGAIN, NOT what I've been talking about.

    Seriously, pay attention to what I'm saying or don't bother posting a reply. This is getting old fast.


    I never said any such thing. And if I implied it I did not mean to. Again, you're off point.

    Please don't post unless you're going to be serious. So far, you have managed to miss every point I was trying to make.

    Stop replying to my posts with things I never said.
     
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