# 911 in 2008 - How has this changed us?

Oh please, I am challenging his claim,
No, you are misrepresenting his (and others') positions, and so attacking strawmen. You seem to want to argue against the silly claim that "all Muslims love America," and seem determined not be be deterred by the fact that nobody holds such a belief.

Then why in the subheader does it say "Many Muslims Deeply Resent The West"? Was he just purposely being misleading?
"Many" is a different thing than "most," or even "an appreciable fraction." It only takes a handful of fanatics to perpetrate horrible crimes, after all. That there are enough haters to be worth worrying about, and writing an article on, does not mean that an entire religion is out to get us. Moreover, article subheads are usually reductive and salacious, as their purpose is to draw readership, not provide a nuanced understanding of the claims made inside. It's likely that the subhead was added by an editorial staffer, and not Lewis himself.

Well I am giving up this debate. I apologize to Cyrus and to Quadraphonics for the discussion getting so personal and heated.

Just on an interesting sidenote, a lot of Muslims in the Middle East do not actually believe that Al Queada was responsible for 9/11. Conspiracy theories abound, and antisemetic conspiracy theories are some of the most popular. A lot of Muslims believe that MOSSAD was responsible and a lot of Muslims will insist that no Jews showed up to work at the World Trade Center on September 11th.

Conspiracy theories seem to be quite popular in the Muslim world.

Watch this video LightbulbSun. Search Charlie Rose for many other videos like this by experts if you want to gain some background from sources like Generals, Sec. of State, world leaders, etc.

I dont watch FOX, msnbc, or other cable news outlets because the people on there are mainly no-bodies from newspapers or pundits. I prefer to get my news from credible sources.

Watch this video LightbulbSun. Search Charlie Rose for many other videos like this by experts if you want to gain some background from sources like Generals, Sec. of State, world leaders, etc.

I dont watch FOX, msnbc, or other cable news outlets because the people on there are mainly no-bodies from newspapers or pundits. I prefer to get my news from credible sources.
Thanks Cyrus. I'll check those out.

In a lot of ways that we just seem to accept. One is waiting forever at the airport. We used to surf the net, now the net surfs us

Thanks Cyrus. I'll check those out.

Another good MUST watch from a while back that I stumbeled upon again. Everyone should take note's while watching this one. It's a really really good discussion.

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Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
President Bush is about to go on TV and ask Americans to assume the liability for as much as $1,000,000,000,000 of bad paper. We are told that this is a national and global emergency; that it could lead to a global depression. We are asked to assume this debt witthout proper oversight. We are told that there isn't enough time for proper consideration -that we must act quickly! We are told that the sky is falling. But we are told this by the boys who cried wolf and attacked the wrong country. How are we to believe them now? President Bush is about to go on TV and ask Americans to assume the liability for as much as$1,000,000,000,000 of bad paper. We are told that this is a national and global emergency; that it could lead to a global depression. We are asked to assume this debt witthout proper oversight. We are told that there isn't enough time for proper consideration -that we must act quickly! We are told that the sky is falling.

But we are told this by the boys who cried wolf and attacked the wrong country. How are we to believe them now?
A lot of economists seem to agree with him. It is always good to be skeptical, especially of politicians' claims.

mheslep
Gold Member

Another good MUST watch from a while back that I stumbeled upon again. Everyone should take note's while watching this one. It's a really really good discussion.
(Post for Iraq thread?) I recommend Rick's very good book, though its horizon is limited by a pre-surge publication.

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And I never said they were, but to rightfully deny that they hate us is baseless.
It is impossible to judge motives of people none of us have met.

However, 9/11 can be explained much more simply and reasonably by assuming that Al Qaeda only attacked us because we are the protectors of Saudi Arabia. The opinion of many experts is that Bin Laden desires to overthrow the Saudi King (see link below). Occam's razor would seem to favor that explanation over some idea that Al Qaeda would spend millions of dollars to attack us because they don't like us for some undefined reason.

See:

Just on an interesting sidenote, a lot of Muslims in the Middle East do not actually believe that Al Queada was responsible for 9/11. Conspiracy theories abound, and antisemetic conspiracy theories are some of the most popular. A lot of Muslims believe that MOSSAD was responsible and a lot of Muslims will insist that no Jews showed up to work at the World Trade Center on September 11th.

Conspiracy theories seem to be quite popular in the Muslim world.
They are popular in the US too, even with some people that were fairly highly placed in former Administrations. See: http://www.vdare.com/roberts/070910_911.htm
That fellow was a former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury (maybe explains the mess the economy is in now).

Staff Emeritus
Gold Member
So NOW the Republicans don't believe Bush when he says this is a national crisis.

Talk about irony! The boy who cried wolf, indeed.

They had no problem rushing into a needless war. They believed Bush when he insisted that everything is rosey. But now, when we have a real crisis, asking for money is asking too much. So much for patriotism.

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turbo
Gold Member
A lot of economists seem to agree with him. It is always good to be skeptical, especially of politicians' claims.
A lot of economists cut their teeth on Wall Street and have little appreciation nor understanding of the problems that ordinary citizens face, except in the abstract. When Greenspan and now Bernanke repeatedly cut the prime rate to free up money for Wall Street, did they give a damn about all of us who have saved all our lives only to watch the interest on our savings and money-market accounts turn to dirt? No. They are economists, and they take care of investment banks and speculators with no regard for people who did the right thing and saved for their retirements. They tinker with the market constantly and don't allow it to self-correct so that we can moderate crashes and booms.

baywax
Gold Member
So NOW the Republicans don't believe Bush when he says this is a national crisis.

Talk about irony! The boy who cried wolf, indeed.

They had no problem rushing into a needless war. They believed Bush when he insisted that everything is rosey. But now, when we have a real crisis, asking for money is asking too much. So much for patriotism.
Never cry wolf.

(unless it's a real wolf, of course!)

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"Us" could mean in the US, the citizens of another country, or the global community.
......
There was something that caused 911. Maybe, US's (or just humans) own narrow (selfish) interests are leading it to the disaster.

I don't think we can blame US, Bush, terrorists, or anyone else but ourselves.

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