A few key questions about the Big bang model of the universe

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around questions and clarifications regarding the Big Bang model of the universe, particularly focusing on concepts of density, pressure, and the nature of the universe's early state. Participants explore theoretical implications and challenge each other's understanding of these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how high density can exist without an external force pushing on the universe, suggesting that high density requires an outward force.
  • Another participant counters that high density can occur without external forces, using the example of tungsten, which is dense without being pushed on.
  • There is a distinction made between density and pressure, with a participant noting that while density is proportional to pressure, they are not the same.
  • Some participants discuss the misconception that the universe began as a singular point in space surrounded by vacuum, asserting that the Big Bang theory posits that space itself expanded.
  • A participant mentions that in some models of the Big Bang theory, the high uniform density is a result of the collapse of a prior phase of the universe, likening it to a "bounce" scenario.
  • Technical aspects of non-singular cosmology and bounce models are introduced, suggesting that quantum effects modify gravity at high densities, affecting the dynamics of the universe's expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement on the nature of density and the necessity of external forces for high density to exist. There is no consensus on the interpretation of the Big Bang model, as multiple viewpoints and models are presented without resolution.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various models within the Big Bang theory, indicating that the discussion is complex and involves unresolved assumptions about the nature of the universe's early state and the relationship between density and pressure.

pentazoid
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Well actually, I only have one question about the Big Bang model. According to Big bang theory, at the beginning of the universe the was a very high density region. So then the pressure on our early universe must be really really high. When there is pressure present , that means there is outward force pushing on the object with high pressure. There must have been some really large object pushing on the universe during its early stages if the early universe was extremely dense.
 
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According to Big bang theory, at the beginning of the universe the was a very high density region.
No, at the beginning, the whole universe had a very high density, not just an artificially compressed region.
 
Ich said:
No, at the beginning, the whole universe had a very high density, not just an artificially compressed region.

How can the whole universe have a very had density if there must be some outside force pushing on the universe for high density to exist in the first place? High density just doesn't occur on an object without forces outwardly pushing on that object.
 
pentazoid said:
How can the whole universe have a very had density if there must be some outside force pushing on the universe for high density to exist in the first place? High density just doesn't occur on an object without forces outwardly pushing on that object.

Do you have any evidence for that statement? A chunk of tungsten has a high density, and nothing is pushing on it.
 
density and pressure are not the same thing

tungsten is dense but it doesn't have a high internal prssure does it? What about the early universe. Did it have both height pressure and density? or just high density?
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Do you have any evidence for that statement? A chunk of tungsten has a high density, and nothing is pushing on it.

I guess you are right. But, Tungsten doesn't exist in a vacuum. The notion that the whole universe begin as a singular point in space , with nothing but vacuum surrounding is very counterintuitive to me.

density and pressure are not the same thing

I know , but density is proportional to pressure.

rho= MP/RT .
 
pentazoid said:
Well actually, I only have one question about the Big Bang model. According to Big bang theory, at the beginning of the universe the was a very high density region...

Ich said:
No, at the beginning, the whole universe had a very high density, not just an artificially compressed region.

pentazoid said:
How can the whole universe have a very had density if there must be some outside force pushing on the universe for high density to exist in the first place? High density just doesn't occur on an object without forces outwardly pushing on that object.

Pentazoid, it looks to me like you are trying to think physically and understand, not just pick holes. That's good.
Please read the essays at Einstein Online and this famous Scientific American article called "Misconceptions about the Big Bang". Then come back with possibly revised questions.
SciAm
http://www.astro.princeton.edu/~aes/AST105/Readings/misconceptionsBigBang.pdf
Einstein Online
http://www.einstein-online.info/en/spotlights/cosmology/index.html

In the Big Bang theory there are actually several models being currently studied. Ich told you one important thing already. In all models the matter is approximately evenly distributed throughout. So above all you have to get rid of the picture of an explosion, where stuff flies out into empty space. There is no "region" of high density with some separate surrounding region of low density. That's a bad picture. Ich is making that point.

In some of the models studied in Big Bang theory this moment of very high uniform density is the result of the collapse of a prior phase of the universe.

The analogy people use is that of a "bounce". The very high density is achieved as in a gravitational collapse, somewhat like when a star abruptly collapses (but in the case of the star there is surrounding empty space, in our "big bounce" case it is the whole universe, the whole of space and matter, that collapses and rebounds.)

There are a lot of technical papers about so-called non-singular cosmology, bounce models etc. The models work because of some interesting quantum effects that modify the way gravity acts at very high density. This puts a calculable limit on how high the density can get (during a collapse) before a rebound occurs---causing the kind of expansion which we currently observe.

Please tell us again (after reading the SciAm article and the Einstein Online material) what it is you want to know.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
pentazoid said:
The notion that the whole universe begin as a singular point in space , with nothing but vacuum surrounding is very counterintuitive to me.

Good, because that's not what the big bang theory says. The universe did not explode into a pre-existing space. Space itself expanded.
 

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