A question about a proof of the irrationality of pi

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a proof concerning the irrationality of pi, specifically focusing on the mathematical inequalities presented at the conclusion of the proof. Participants explore the implications of limits, the behavior of sequences, and the application of Stirling's formula in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how the inequality involving the limit and the expression being less than 1 is derived.
  • Another participant suggests that if the expression tends to 0, it implies that for any positive epsilon, there exists a threshold beyond which the expression remains below that epsilon.
  • A different participant introduces Stirling's formula to provide a lower boundary for factorials, indicating that this can help show the expression is less than a certain value.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the epsilon-delta definition and seek clarification on its application in the context of limits.
  • There is a discussion about whether one can always find an N(epsilon) such that the expression remains below a specific threshold for sufficiently large n.
  • One participant simplifies the reasoning by stating that as n increases, the product involving a and pi becomes very small, leading to the conclusion that the expression can be made less than 1.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding the mathematical concepts involved, particularly the epsilon-delta definition and the implications of limits. There is no clear consensus on the derivation of the inequality or the interpretation of the limit behavior.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference the need for further clarification on the epsilon-delta definition and its application, indicating potential gaps in understanding or assumptions that may not have been fully articulated.

murshid_islam
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Here is the proof I was reading: https://mathschallenge.net/full/irrationality_of_pi

I have a question about this very last inequality at the end:
[itex]\therefore \displaystyle{\lim_{n \to \infty}\left(\dfrac{a^n}{n!}\right)} = 0[/itex] and for sufficiently large [itex] n, \dfrac{a^n\pi^{n+1}}{n!} \lt 1[/itex]
How did they get that "less than 1" bit?
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If ##\left(\dfrac{(a\pi)^n}{n!}\right)## tends to ##0##, what does that mean? For any ##\varepsilon > 0## there is ...
 
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You can use Stirling's formula and its lower boundary:
$$
\sqrt{2\pi n}\left(\dfrac{n^n}{e^n}\right) < n! \Longrightarrow\left(\dfrac{(a\pi)^n\cdot \pi}{n!}\right) < \left(\dfrac{a\pi e}{n}\right)^n\cdot \dfrac{\sqrt{\pi}}{\sqrt{2}}\cdot\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{n}}
$$
The first factor tends to ##0## and thus can be made smaller than ##\dfrac{\sqrt{2}}{\sqrt{\pi}}.##

(If I made no mistake.)
 
fresh_42 said:
If ##\left(\dfrac{(a\pi)^n}{n!}\right)## tends to ##0##, what does that mean? For any ##\varepsilon > 0## there is ...
I have been out of touch with that ##\varepsilon-\delta## stuff for about 15 years. Can you elaborate a little?
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Formally: For any ##\varepsilon > 0## there is an ##N(\varepsilon)## - depending on that ##\varepsilon## - such that all ##\left|\dfrac{(a\pi)^n}{n!}\right| < \varepsilon## for all indices ##n > N(\varepsilon)##.

This means that you can make ##\dfrac{(a\pi)^n}{n!}## arbitrary small, the greater ##n## is. So you can make it certainly smaller than ##\dfrac{1}{\pi}##, if only the ##n## are large enough.
 
fresh_42 said:
Formally: For any ##\varepsilon > 0## there is an ##N(\varepsilon)## - depending on that ##\varepsilon## - such that all ##\left|\dfrac{(a\pi)^n}{n!}\right| < \varepsilon## for all indices ##n > N(\varepsilon)##.
A general question about limits (just to check if I understood it):
if we wanted to find the limit of f(x) as ##x \rightarrow -\infty## (instead of ##+\infty##), should we find ##N(\varepsilon)## such that |f(x) - the limit| ##< \varepsilon## for all ## x < N(\varepsilon)## instead of ##x > N(\varepsilon)##.

fresh_42 said:
This means that you can make ##\dfrac{(a\pi)^n}{n!}## arbitrary small, the greater ##n## is. So you can make it certainly smaller than ##\dfrac{1}{\pi}##, if only the ##n## are large enough.
Does that mean that we can always find an ##N(\varepsilon)## such that any ##n > N(\varepsilon)## will lead to ##\left|\frac{(a\pi)^n}{n!}\right| < \frac{1}{\pi}##?
 
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murshid_islam said:
A general question about limits (just to check if I understood it):
if we wanted to find the limit of f(x) as ##x \rightarrow -\infty## (instead of ##+\infty##), should we find ##N(\varepsilon)## such that |f(x) - the limit| ##< \varepsilon## for all ## x < N(\varepsilon)## instead of ##x > N(\varepsilon)##.
##\lim_{x \to a}f(x)=c## means that for any sequence ##(x_n)\longrightarrow a## we have ##\lim_{x_n \to \infty}f(x_n)=c.## Here ##a,c\in \mathbb{R}\cup \{\pm \infty\}.## The ##n## are only a numbering of the sequence, i.e. it makes no sense to count them by negative numbers.

If ##|c|<\infty## is finite, then we have: For any sequence ##(x_n)\longrightarrow a## which converges to ##a##, and any given, requested approximation ##\varepsilon>0##, there is an ##N(\varepsilon)## such that ##|f(x_n)-c|<\varepsilon## for all ##n>N(\varepsilon).## Whether ##a## is infinitely positive, finite, or infinitely negative is irrelevant here; only that our (arbitrary) sequence ##(x_n)## converges to ##a.##

If ##c\in \{\pm \infty\}##, then we have again an arbitrary sequence ##(x_n)\longrightarrow a##, for which the following holds: For any finite boundary ##K## there is a sequence index ##N(K)##, such that ##f(x_n) >K## for all ##n>N(K)##, in case ##c=+\infty##, and ##f(x_n) < K## for all ##n>N(K)##, in case ##c=-\infty.##

If you forget about the function here, then the same definitions apply to ##(x_n) \longrightarrow a.##

The indexing ##n=1,2,3,\ldots## is always positive. Sure, you may count by negative numbers, but that would only be unnecessarily confusing.

Continuity of the function ##f## and the ##\varepsilon-\delta## definition in comparison to the sequence definition of continuity is a different subject. Here we have only sequences.
 
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murshid_islam said:
How did they get that "less than 1" bit?
It is simpler than you are making it. Each increase of ##n## puts in another multiplier of ##a*\pi/n##. Since ##n## can get huge, the product can get very small.
 

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