A Tale of Perseverance: Overcoming Challenges in Graduate School

[triangleman]

Or get a job as a package handeler. I did, and it was such hard physical work that I realized that anything would be easier, and when I went back to school I found no problem with working 12 hours a day on school work.

Either way you will realize reality is ***** and you are lucky to be able to study instead lifing boxes all day.

As a matter of fact, this is what I'm doing now to subsist. The job is 12 x 5 + 10 x 2 hours per week, and it involves shuttling small packages around the area. It's a real dive, but it pays the bills.

Also, what you say in your last sentence is precisely what got me to work up the courage and start calling people in physics programs to see if they have room for a thesis student in their group. One institution actually entertained the idea (a top-50 school), and sent my CV to the appropriate group. Of course they're going to chat with the people at my old graduate program, and the jury's still out on how sympathetic they'll be. If they say no, I'll probably try another place and negotiate for a second chance. I've been, and am amazed at how limited my options are in the workforce, and I feel that leaving the chance to do independent research and earn a Ph.D. would be an unfortunate (and lazy) compromise.

 

[will.c]

You still haven't answered why the hell you want to be a physicist. If you're going to relapse, getting your Ph.D. is a dumb idea.

 

[nrqed]

I think that you must really take some time to think about what you would îç enjoy ^éiç doing. If physics is not it, then there is no point in pushing in that direction. You are obviously very bright so if motivation was not there, phyiscs simply may not be what you should be doing. Spend some time to think broadly...engineering? business? med school? jet pilot? park ranger?
I am not sure that going back to grad school is a good idea right now if it does not get you excited.

 

[Manchot]

Also, what you say in your last sentence is precisely what got me to work up the courage and start calling people in physics programs to see if they have room for a thesis student in their group. One institution actually entertained the idea (a top-50 school), and sent my CV to the appropriate group. Of course they're going to chat with the people at my old graduate program, and the jury's still out on how sympathetic they'll be.

You're only 24, right? It seems to me that you'd be better off applying as if you didn't even attend your first grad school. In other words, can you just apply as if you were a senior undergrad? If anyone asks, you can just say that you took some time off after undergrad or something like that.

 

[G01]

I think that you must really take some time to think about what you would îç enjoy ^éiç doing. If physics is not it, then there is no point in pushing in that direction. You are obviously very bright so if motivation was not there, phyiscs simply may not be what you should be doing. Spend some time to think broadly...engineering? business? med school? jet pilot? park ranger?
I am not sure that going back to grad school is a good idea right now if it does not get you excited.

I agree. You have to figure out what you really want to do. You are smart and obviously want a stimulating field to work in. But if you can't get interested in physics, then the field just may not be for you. Physics is not the only intellectually challenging field out there. Figure out what you really want before you make any decisions to go back to grad school.

Like I said before. You have to figure out why you "crashed" in grad school. What were you missing? Why did you not have the interest and passion you had in high school? Were you too immature with your attitude? Was it the field itself or just life in grad school you couldn't stand? Maybe you just don't like doing research? These are questions you need to answer before you make any major decisions. Otherwise, the same thing may happen again.

 

[Locrian]

You still haven't answered why the hell you want to be a physicist. If you're going to relapse, getting your Ph.D. is a dumb idea.

Seriously. I find the fact that you're even considering going back to get a physics degree appalling, and the reason for doing it (because it's better than moving boxes) is just absurd. Sorry to be harsh, but you need it.

Let me give you an opinion that is less common around here: A PhD in particle physics (and many other areas of physics) is worth only slightly more than your failed 4 years - and if it takes someone 8 years to finish, it might be worth less. Our country produces several times as many scientists and engineers as it actually needs, there's been a massive overproduction of people whose only job option is to be a professor for over 30 years, and very few disciplines in physics have any value outside the university.

You were roped into this at least partly because of our society's weird obsession with physics. It's time to grow beyond that and actually find something you can really be successful in.

 

[Defennder]

You were roped into this at least partly because of our society's weird obsession with physics. It's time to grow beyond that and actually find something you can really be successful in.

Since when has there been a fascination with physics? If anything, I remember reading fewer and fewer students picked physics as a major nowadays.

 

[triangleman]

Seriously. I find the fact that you're even considering going back to get a physics degree appalling...

Let me give you an opinion that is less common around here: A PhD in particle physics (and many other areas of physics) is worth only slightly more than your failed 4 years - and if it takes someone 8 years to finish, it might be worth less. Our country produces several times as many scientists and engineers as it actually needs, there's been a massive overproduction of people whose only job option is to be a professor for over 30 years, and very few disciplines in physics have any value outside the university.

Are you talking about the US? Last time I checked (cf. the period Bush has been in office), we were playing second fiddle to the UK in science, mostly because of poor funding for the major agencies: NIH, DOE, NASA, etc. It's not that we are overmanned in science and engineering--we are in fact suffering attrition because of the funding situation and lack of focus on basic research.

Regarding the job options: Ph.D. graduates in physics aren't as pigeon-holed as you would think. Three of the senior graduate students in our high-energy-physics group graduated within one year of one another. None of these three were headed to a post-doc; they simply weren't interested in that 30-plus years in academia. Instead, they all went to Wall Street to take jobs in algorithmic trading and build models, and rest assured, they are all very well-to-do. This isn't to say that one should get their doctorate to get rich, but it does open up more doors than just receiving a B.S. or M.S. in physics, even if it takes those 8 years.

Also, in many places, a Ph.D. in physics commands more attention than an MBA or even a degree in computer science, because (i) Ph.D. recipients tend to be more disciplined then their MBA candidates, and (ii) you'll likely not get very far without automating at least some of your data analysis work (did you really think that slide rule would help with those ML fits?).

 

[triangleman]

Thanks for all the advice, and sorry for resurrecting such an ancient thread. I've decided to return to school after working as an office manager and hating every nanosecond of it. The school is going to put me on three months probation and let me work in a research lab outside of the physics department. Based on my performance in that lab, they'll either reinstate me as a physics graduate student or give me the royal boot. Is this something you would have done?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Honestly, no. I would have instead hired someone who hadn't squandered every opportunity he had been presented with. I think you should consider yourself very, very fortunate.

3 months is 13 weeks or 65 working days. If I were you, I would make sure I was the first person to arrive and the last person to leave on every single one of those 65 days.

 

[Moonbear]

3 months is 13 weeks or 65 working days. If I were you, I would make sure I was the first person to arrive and the last person to leave on every single one of those 65 days.

Working days? Grad school doesn't operate on 5-day weeks. I'd suggest being the first to arrive and last to leave for every single one of the 90 days of this second chance. If that doesn't cut it, then it's time to face up to needing to find a change of path. You started out young, and people change as they mature. You might just realize in a few years that getting kicked out of grad school was the best thing that ever happened to you when you find something you really enjoy so much more.

 

[Borek]

3 months is more than 90 days, unless you happen to start before March 1^st on a non-leap year

 

[Vanadium 50]

Working days? Grad school doesn't operate on 5-day weeks.

I figured I'd let him ease into it.

 

[Moonbear]

3 months is more than 90 days, unless you happen to start before March 1^st on a non-leap year

The first or last weekend probably doesn't count.

But, I think the point is clear. I don't feel sorry for grad students who complain they aren't able to make the progress their committee expects of them if I don't ever see them in the lab on weekends or evenings. The coursework is a full time job and the research is a full time job. When you have two full time jobs, that means you have to work evenings and weekends to get it all done.

 

[G01]

Even as an undergrad working on my senior project, I have found myself in the lab at hours "normal people" would have gone home.

I agree with the previous points

1.I also would not have taken you back if I was in the school's place, since you have shown time and time again, that you are a waste of their money and a waste of a position they could have given to a much more productive student.

2. That said, you HAVE to prove me wrong if you want to succeed this time around. Show them that you will no longer waste their time or the position they are giving you. Take MB's advice and work evenings and weekends.

If you really enjoy the work, then this shouldn't be a problem. If you don't enjoy the work, then I have no idea why you want to go back into physics, since it obviously isn't what you want/expect it to be.

Good luck to you.

 

[PowerIso]

Thanks for all the advice, and sorry for resurrecting such an ancient thread. I've decided to return to school after working as an office manager and hating every nanosecond of it. The school is going to put me on three months probation and let me work in a research lab outside of the physics department. Based on my performance in that lab, they'll either reinstate me as a physics graduate student or give me the royal boot. Is this something you would have done?

Yes, I would've returned back to school, but that is because I love studying what I study. It doesn't matter what we would've done, but rather what is best for you. Are you going back to school just because you have no idea what else to do? If so, then I don't see many things changing for you. However, if somewhere, in your heart, you want to keep studying physics then I wish you well and hope your work habits improve.

 

[jhicks]

What an interesting thread. It rings home a bit when I read triangleman's plight. Ever since I was a second semester undergrad I've questioned why I'm in college studying EE given I interned and hated every day of it and worked in a lab for over a year but struggled to find the motivation to work on anything lab-oriented, but interestingly enough here I am working on my PhD. Frankly, I'm pretty sure the only reason I started EE was because it was accepted by my peers to be the absolute hardest degree. Anyway, like him I had a tough run-in with video games early on and averaged around 8 hours a day over 3 years. I remember taking abstract algebra as a freshman after "the game" came out and getting my first C, and then withdrawing from a couple classes and being so mad at myself but still unwilling to quit and rewarding myself with "the game" every time I did minor things well.

There never was a point where I resolved to do better, but over time I was humiliated more and more at falling short of every goal I set for myself. I channeled this sentiment into doing better toward the end, but I can't say that I am proud of anything I did in undergrad even though apparently it was enough to get into a top 10 grad school. I am still extremely disappointed in myself though - regardless of what some admissions committee thinks - because in my eyes you're not even close to an engineer if you haven't built something with your hands.

Triangleman, I wish you the best in finding yourself. If you fail again, I am honest-to-god suggesting that you join the military. During undergrad I worked for a year with a guy who had been discharged after a few years and his work ethic was absolutely astounding. He told me all these stories about how he was a typical bad-attitude-no-work-ethic kid in a bad part of town and I was in disbelief.

 

[mal4mac]

Join the military and get sent to Iraq? Die in a stupid war based on the lies of Tony Blair and George Bush? What sense does that make? If you need discipline why not become a physics teacher? The best way to learn anything is to teach it - and you have to teach discipline to kids or they will make your life a misery. Also, you can't get away with skiving off to play video games if there's a class waiting...

 

[jhicks]

Join the military and get sent to Iraq? Die in a stupid war based on the lies of Tony Blair and George Bush? What sense does that make?

You know there are more jobs in the military than just infantry. You don't think a physics degree might qualify him for some of those jobs?

If you need discipline why not become a physics teacher? The best way to learn anything is to teach it - and you have to teach discipline to kids or they will make your life a misery.

So learn particle physics by teaching semester 1 of mechanics over and over? Who doesn't make sense now! I'm not arguing teaching isn't a tough job, but it's still not severe enough that one would be forced to learn discipline.

 

[mal4mac]

So learn particle physics by teaching semester 1 of mechanics over and over? Who doesn't make sense now! I'm not arguing teaching isn't a tough job, but it's still not severe enough that one would be forced to learn discipline.

I meant that he might learn discipline by teaching discipline, not that he could learn advanced physics by teaching basic physics. The regimented school day, and a reasonably strict headmaster, should also impose some discipline on him. After all, he didn't flunk high school, so school discipline was enough for him as a school student. How do you know such a regime would not be severe enough as a teacher?

Anyway he could try that, or other civvy jobs. For instance, working in front-line IT support/call centre work would necessitate being 'on the job' 9 to 5, and force him to stop playing computer games. If all that fails then it's either 'the street', prison, or the army. Then I would suggest the army...

 

[th3plan]

No offense , but i personally find it hilarious how u keep referencing yourself as the 2nd coming of Christ. I did this, and i was top in that, and in the end you got nothing to show for it , So ha! I really don't like people who brag.

 

[triangleman]

No offense , but i personally find it hilarious how u keep referencing yourself as the 2nd coming of Christ. I did this, and i was top in that, and in the end you got nothing to show for it , So ha! I really don't like people who brag.

This looks like a "you got what you deserved"-type reply with little advice: about 95% of the responses were very helpful and provided some direction on what career plan to take. Yes--I made a major error in the beginning and am now being given a second chance at the cost of spending 4 + 4 + 4 years in school. I didn't mean to come across as boastful in that original thread. If you thought I did, sorry.