A three month long summer vacation from public school seems stupid

[DaveC426913]

Nope. The summer vacation could be from July 16 to August 01 every year. The school year rigidly starts on August 01, and the school year rigidly ends on July 16. Nope, no confusion there.

And this happens magically?

As someone who works as support staff in education, I can tell you that the work put in at graduation and the work required to start the new year are both quite a lot. 160 programs: faculty, syllabus, fees etc. all get updated. The workload can't overlap.

And remember, grade school, high school and college are in lockstep. You can't change onec without othout changing them all.

Staff need more than two weeks to wrap up the old year and refurbish everything for the new year. There's a little more to the cycle than ticking a desk calendar over from 2025 to 2026.

This is what the summer is for.

You are speaking about things you do not understand.

 

[BillTre]

You are speaking about things with great conviction you do not understand.

 

[PeterDonis]

It's more important than vacations.

Maybe for you. But not everyone shares your preferences. And there is no reason why your preferences should override everyone else's.

I think that two weeks is a proper amount of time for a summer vacation.

When I was in school, two weeks was barely enough time for me to get into the swing of summer vacation. I would have hated going back to school at that point.

 

[JT Smith]

It's a question of balance and clearly there is disagreement about that. Fortunately one person's preference doesn't decide.

If I were King many of you would not be happy with many of my decisions. If I were God I would probably be hated.

 

[TensorCalculus]

I think that two weeks is a proper amount of time for a summer vacation. The summer vacation's lasting three months is a tradition that started with the advent of public schools in the 19th century. With the advent of modern airplanes in the early 20th century, one can travel anywhere in the whole world and back in two weeks.

Even if 2 weeks of travel wasn't a bit too short anyway, that would make plane tickets extremely expensive during those 2 weeks. They're expensive enough when the holidays are months long.

You can work on your own projects during a two week summer vacation, and then you can work on your projects on the weekends during the school year.

I think I can speak for a large group of students when I say I get home at 5:30pm (if I have a club, that's 6:30), and sleep at like 10, and in the time in between I have to do basic things like shower and change and eat dinner but I also have to do my homework and I have to practice my instrument and prepare for tests and olympiads and do chores and also practice things like maths and physics so that really doesn't leave much time for any projects during the week, and the weekends are always busy...
Depending on the project, 2 weeks might not be enough. And what if my family wants to go abroad during those two weeks? After all, there's no other time they can go abroad. What time would I have to relax or to work on things other than schoolwork? What about summer programmes or work experience which can be highly beneficial to students' progress and learning, but operate in the summer holidays?

That is what air-conditioning is for.

Yeah... so that's not really a thing in Britain... like I have never been to a school with AC, and most houses here don' have AC either. There are better things for the schools to spend their money on, not to mention the pain it would be to install AC in every classroom and the extra cost associated with running them.

The idea is in goodwill, but 2 weeks is far, far too short in my opinion.
Maybe America switches from 3 months to Britain's 1.5ish months. Don't know.

 

[martinbn]

Maybe America switches from 3 months to Britain's 1.5ish months. Don't know.

1.5 months in the summer, but you (in the UK) have one week off after every six weeks of school. He will not like that.

 

[TensorCalculus]

1.5 months in the summer, but you (in the UK) have one week off after every six qeeks of school. He will not like that.

Wait, Americans don't have that?

Gods, I don't think I could survive without a Christmas/Easter holiday, and half term of course

Nevertheless I would argue that having a 1.5 month summer and then lots of smaller holidays is favourable to one big holiday.
2 weeks is too short though.

 

[martinbn]

Wait, Americans don't have that?

Gods, I don't think I could survive without a Christmas/Easter holiday, and half term of course

Nevertheless I would argue that having a 1.5 month summer and then lots of smaller holidays is favourable to one big holiday.
2 weeks is too short though.

I don't know about the Americans, but I had 2.5 to 3 months in the summer, Christmas and spring breaks but no half term breaks. Or if you prefer all the half and in-between terms breaks are put in the summer. Another thing is we only had two longer semesters, not three terms like you.

 

[TensorCalculus]

I don't know about the Americans, but I had 2.5 to 3 months in the summer, Christmas and spring breaks but no half term breaks. Or if you prefer all the half and in-between terms breaks are put in the summer. Another thing is we only had two longer semesters, not three terms like you.

Oh.
That is different.

I still would prefer half terms with shorter summers :)
but not that short...

 

[PeroK]

You're assuming that the primary cause of world poverty is lack of education. I don't think that's true. I think the primary cause of world poverty is misgovernment--that countries whose people are mostly poor are governed poorly, and their governments are not held accountable for that. I think that even with the current state of education, people who are poor because they are unable to be productive aren't that way because they aren't educated well enough, but because there are political barriers in the way of them being productive. (In many underdeveloped countries, the barrier is obvious: anything a private person produces, the government takes away. There's no incentive to produce under those conditions, even if you're the most productive worker in the world.)

If this is not political, then neither is the alternative view.

Poor or corrupt government is a factor, but underdeveloped countries have been kept underdeveloped by US policy (and, to some extent the policy of Western nations). The priority is the profits of US corporations. These are maximised when the poorer nations remain poor and cannot compete with US corporations.

In many cases, countries which have tried to develop have been undermined or sabotaged by US operations.

US Aid was needed to stop many countries collapsing altogether and maintaining the status quo. Even if those involved in aid were doing it for genuine humanitarian reasons.

Now that US Aid is essentially no more, there is no counterbalance to the economic domination by the US of developing nations.

Moreover, China's policy towards the third world appears to be more mutually beneficial. China wants contracts and influence, of course, but it is prepared to allow countries to develop in the process.

This initially appears paradoxical because China is a Communist dictatorship with little official recognition of human rights. Nevertheless, China may succeed over the US in this respect.

I suggest that most of the rest of the world would see it more like that.

 

[dextercioby]

Here's my take: middle way. Yes, grant children 2 months of summer vacation, 2- 2,5 weeks of (sorry, non-Christians) Christmas vacation, one week around Easter (so April-May) and one week at the end of October. So a few days of 3 full months of vacation. But keep teachers busy for the summer, working in schools for one month (being forced to research, bring new approach to material taught, even in sciences), with only one month paid leave in the summer.

 

[BillTre]

Here's my take: middle way. Yes, grant children 2 months of summer vacation, 2- 2,5 weeks of (sorry, non-Christians) Christmas vacation, one week around Easter (so April-May) and one week at the end of October. So a few days of 3 full months of vacation. But keep teachers busy for the summer, working in schools for one month (being forced to research, bring new approach to material taught, even in sciences), with only one month paid leave in the summer.

So time off for summer, religious holidays, plus an end October Halloween (some will probably consider it Satanic).

 

[PeterDonis]

The priority is the profits of US corporations. These are maximised when the poorer nations remain poor and cannot compete with US corporations.

I don't think this is true. US corporations can increase their profits by investing in poorer countries to make them richer. But doing that requires having confidence that those investments won't be seized by the corrupt governments of the poorer countries.

I don't disagree that US corporations (and corporations in general) don't always recognize what I've stated above. But they don't completely ignore it either. See, for example:

https://www.bea.gov/news/2025/direct-investment-country-and-industry-2024

US direct investment in Asia-Pacific + Latin America/other Western Hemisphere is over $2T, which is not huge, but not negligible given the total US GDP (about $30T). Those are areas where there are enough countries that will support reasonably stable investments. The US direct investment in the Middle East and Africa is much smaller; that makes sense since there is much less support for reasonably stable investments in those regions.

 

[PeterDonis]

If this is not political, then neither is the alternative view.

I agree that both alternative views should be presented, or neither. This being GD, I think it's ok to opt for "both" at least for a little, since the OP raised the issue originally.

 

[nasu]

"But keep teachers busy for the summer, working in schools for one month (being forced to research, bring new approach to material taught, even in sciences), with only one month paid leave in the summer."

Teachers need the break at least as much as the children, if not more. (I am not a teacher, thanks God). As already hinted in other posts, reducing the breaks or changing them is not a starting point for a better system but rather (maybe) a side effect of a changed system in which shorter breaks will make sense.

 

[BillTre]

But keep teachers busy for the summer, working in schools for one month (being forced to research, bring new approach to material taught, even in sciences), with only one month paid leave in the summer.

Hey, that is not a quote from me!

 

[nasu]

Sorry, wrong quote. I quoted you quoting the original. I eliminated the author. Anyway, I answered the idea not necessarily the author of it. Didn't know what else to do to correct it.

 

[Rive]

Three months of vacation is good, but the distribution might be indeed problematic. In elementary schools the first two or three weeks (up to a month) of a new semester are traditionally about re-learning the already forgotten last year and sharing all the adventure and experience germs and bugs collected during the vacation. Definitely makes a dent on the efficiency.

But vacation is still a must. Childhood is not all about (school) education.

 

[pinball1970]

If this is not political, then neither is the alternative view.

Poor or corrupt government is a factor, but underdeveloped countries have been kept underdeveloped by US policy (and, to some extent the policy of Western nations). The priority is the profits of US corporations. These are maximised when the poorer nations remain poor and cannot compete with US corporations.

In many cases, countries which have tried to develop have been undermined or sabotaged by US operations.

US Aid was needed to stop many countries collapsing altogether and maintaining the status quo. Even if those involved in aid were doing it for genuine humanitarian reasons.

Now that US Aid is essentially no more, there is no counterbalance to the economic domination by the US of developing nations.

Moreover, China's policy towards the third world appears to be more mutually beneficial. China wants contracts and influence, of course, but it is prepared to allow countries to develop in the process.

This initially appears paradoxical because China is a Communist dictatorship with little official recognition of human rights. Nevertheless, China may succeed over the US in this respect.

I suggest that most of the rest of the world would see it more like that.

WAY to hot potato for me but I will say this in line with the OP.

Ideology, politics, ethics and morals in our formative years were found not at school all the time but in our six week holidays.

I thought it started with line 3 but besides that, pretty much there from memory after a Google.

"You got to fight for what you want,
For all that you believe.
It's right to fight for what we want,
to live the way we please.
As long as we have done our best,
then no-one can do more,
and life and love and happiness
are well worth fighting for."

 

[JT Smith]

Didn't know what else to do to correct it.

Edit it. :-)

 

[JT Smith]

Childhood is not all about (school) education.

Exactly.

Being human is not all about being productive.

 

[BillTre]

Didn't know what else to do to correct it.

Not from my post.

 

[gmax137]

These things are not monolithic, at least in the US. Here, school systems are local, run by the county/town/city. Back in the 1990s I was working in Florida. One co-worker was a local woman, brought up in the Palm Beach County schools where she had a four-semester year round schedule - I think they had a month between semesters. The number of school days per "grade year" worked out the same as anywhere else. She said she, and most others, loved it.

EDIT
I had elementary school in Virginia in the 1960s. Our summer off started first week of June, back to school first week of September. Few houses had AC and none of the schools did. It would have been brutal to have school in the summer.

My co-worker mentioned above would have been in public schools in the late 1970s/ early 80s; I think they had AC everywhere in Florida by then. Florida would not exist as we know it if not for Mr. Carrier.

 

[PeterDonis]

I had elementary school in Virginia in the 1960s. Our summer off started first week of June, back to school first week of September. Few houses had AC and none of the schools did.

It was still the same schedule in Virginia in the late 1970s and early 1980s when I went to school there. Most houses had AC by that time, but many of the schools still didn't.

 

[mathwonk]

some arithmetic: according to AI, there are about 50 million public school students in the US, and to extend the school year by 10 weeks (2 week summer vacation instead of 12 weeks) would cost almost $4,000 each, or almost 200 billion extra dollars. that's assuming the teachers and staff are open to working an extra 10 weeks a year.

 

[jbriggs444]

Here in the U.S. the number of days per school year is set by state law. The local school districts are then free to schedule the school year in accordance with that restriction.

Political pressure for low taxes and low spending then has the effect that local school districts schedule exactly the prescribed number of days. Periodically some district sets aside an inadequate number of snow days and an entitled wailing for waivers ensues after a too harsh winter.

e.g.

§7–103.

(a) Except as provided in subsections (b), (e), and (f) of this section, each public school under the jurisdiction of a county board:

(1) (i) Shall be open for pupil attendance for at least 180 actual school days and a minimum of 1,080 school hours during a 10–month period in each school year; or

(ii) If normal school attendance is prevented because of conditions described in subsection (b) of this section, shall be open for at least 1,080 hours during a 10–month period;

(2) Shall be open for pupil attendance a minimum of 3 hours during each school day; and

(3) May not be open on Saturdays, Sundays, or holidays in order to meet the 180–day or 1,080–hour requirement of this subsection.

 

[sevensages]

some arithmetic: according to AI, there are about 50 million public school students in the US, and to extend the school year by 10 weeks (2 week summer vacation instead of 12 weeks) would cost almost $4,000 each, or almost 200 billion extra dollars. that's assuming the teachers and staff are open to working an extra 10 weeks a year.

And we would have a better educated population if the summer vacation was reduced to two weeks.

 

[BillTre]

And we would have a better educated population if the summer vacation was reduced to two weeks.

There are also other ways in which a better educated population could be formed.
A major way would involve families in a child's education, but there are others.

 

[PeroK]

some arithmetic: according to AI, there are about 50 million public school students in the US, and to extend the school year by 10 weeks (2 week summer vacation instead of 12 weeks) would cost almost $4,000 each, or almost 200 billion extra dollars. that's assuming the teachers and staff are open to working an extra 10 weeks a year.

By the same argument, you could vave $200 billion dollars annually by reducing the school year by 10 weeks. And, of course, you could save almost $1 trillion dollars by abolishing public education altogether. There's an idea!

 

[Rive]

we would have a better educated population

... with plenty of additional behavioral disorders.
Consumption of sedatives is high enough already. With phone- and internet-addiction barely started to show their fangs I'm pretty sure we don't need all that.

 

[PeroK]

... with plenty of additional behavioral disorders.
Consumption of sedatives is high enough already. With phone- and internet-addiction barely started to show their fangs I'm pretty sure we don't need all that.

I don't see that the education system is responsible for that.

 

[Rive]

I don't see that the education system is responsible for that.

Still, overloading it quite likely would make it worse.

 

[nasu]

And we would have a better educated population if the summer vacation was reduced to two weeks.

More does not imply better. If you can't improve the 9 months or whatever is it now, what a couple months more do?
Thinking that there are simple solutions to complex problems is tempting. Can be dangerous too when the simple "solution" is forced from a position of power.

 

[martinbn]

And we would have a better educated population if the summer vacation was reduced to two weeks.

What about the week itself? Two days weekends! Isn't that too much? What about the days? How many hours per day? What about the nights? How many hours should children sleep? Just imagine how much they would learn if they slept only two hours a night.

 

[weirdoguy]

And we would have a better educated population if the summer vacation was reduced to two weeks.

No we wouldn't. It's basic psychology. No amount of wishfull thinking on your part will change the way humans, and in particular humans brains, work.

Mind you - I'm a teacher. Most of my students are already fatigued because of the amount of work they have in school and after it. It is very persistent in Poland that teachers don't understand that their subjects are not the most important and they assign huge amounts of homework. They want it the way it was in the 80s and 90s... And we have 2 month vacation period. I can't imagine it being shorter.

 

[PeroK]

What about the week itself? Two days weekends! Isn't that too much? What about the days? How many hours per day? What about the nights? How many hours should children sleep? Just imagine how much they would learn if they slept only two hours a night.

A couple of guys I worked with tried that. They slept two hours a night in the Data Centre and clocked on for 150 hours one week. One of them had a nervous breakdown.

 

[DaveC426913]

What about the week itself? Two days weekends! Isn't that too much? What about the days? How many hours per day? What about the nights? How many hours should children sleep? Just imagine how much they would learn if they slept only two hours a night.

Good point.
Saturdays are wasted. Kids could spend that time in school.
And why let them out at 3:30? If we kept them in school till 6pm, not only would that educate them more, but think of the money families would save on daycare!

 

[martinbn]

Oh, i forgot, the start age needs to be changed as well, may be three or two years old can start school. And they can stay in school till they are 25 or so.

 

[BillTre]

Saturdays are wasted. Kids could spend that time in school.

Woe, woe, woe.
When I was a kid (different times) Saturday mornings were very important to my education.
I learned a lot of sarcasm and irony watching Rocky and Bullwinkle!
Squirrel and Moose rule!

 

[PeterDonis]

When I was a kid (different times) Saturday mornings were very important to my education.
I learned a lot of sarcasm and irony watching Rocky and Bullwinkle!

And I learned a lot about how not to use high explosives from watching Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner.

 

[gmax137]

Woe, woe, woe.
When I was a kid (different times) Saturday mornings were very important to my education.
I learned a lot of sarcasm and irony watching Rocky and Bullwinkle!
Squirrel and Moose rule!

And history from Sherman & Mr Peabody... the original (?) Wayback machine

 

[jbriggs444]

And history from Sherman & Mr Peabody... the original (?) Wayback machine

What about literature from Edward Everett Horton?

 

[sbrothy]

There are a couple of things that we can do to incentivise people to want to be teachers:

1# Raise property taxes to increase teachers' pay substantially

2# Make the teacher's jobs easier by expelling disruptive students.----The first thing to do is restore paddling in public schools. Disruptive students should be paddled. If the disruptive students' parents do not consent to their disruptive sons or daughters to be paddled, then the disruptive student either gets expelled from school altogether or get expelled from the normal classes and has to attend school in a special holding area for disruptive students. In the unlikely event that paddling does not cause a student to stop being disruptive, then the disruptive student shall be expelled.

Why stop with paddling? The girls could use the 3 months reading poetry around bonfires in the woods at night like Bund Deutcher Mädels and we could force the boys into some kind of military education - I had a name prepared but it escapes me. The boys could learn trigonometry for throwing grenades and handling mortars. They would all like that and their time would be spend productively. As a bonus we would have a standing army if someone wanted a blitzkrieg.


(I'm being a little sarcastic here.)