# News Accidental Treason by Democratic Congressmen

1. Mar 27, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9228.html

Oops.

We'll see where this goes, but I expect they will be able to successfully disavow knowledge of the true source of the money, but the fact that they traveled with the spy could prove probematic. Nevertheless, they have exposed themselves as patsies/dupes for our enemy.

2. Mar 27, 2008

### edward

Accidental Treason by Democratic Congressmen

Intentional treason by republican president.

Last edited: Mar 27, 2008
3. Mar 27, 2008

### Gokul43201

Staff Emeritus
I don't see a case for treason, accidental (can there be such a thing as "accidental treason"?) or not, unless we also know that one or more of the three Congressmen did something to hurt US interests. What am I missing?

4. Mar 27, 2008

### edward

The guy who was indicted has been around a long time.

Lately he apparently has still been lobbying for coalitional-Tawafuq.

A lot of people have apparently been lobbying for Iraqi groups and parties.

The Kurds have spent nearly $3 million on lobbying and public relations efforts here since 2003, including paying powerhouse Republican lobbying firm Barbour Griffith & Rogers nearly$1.7 million, according to Justice Department records. The Kurds' top lobbyist there is Ed Rogers, a former White House aide to former presidents Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush..

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-06-27-kurds-lobbying_N.htm

If Muthanna al-Hanooti openly or covertly worked for Iraq, where the hell was Homeland Security, the CIA and the FBI?

This 2002 incident has current politics written all over it.

Last edited: Mar 27, 2008
5. Mar 27, 2008

### lisab

Staff Emeritus
Nope, but nice try. Conspiracy theories are not allowed here; see the guidelines.

His trip was vetted by the State Department (which was under Republican management at the time). It was initiated by a group of churches--Christian churches who apparently believe Jesus (aka The Prince of Peace...?) would have been opposed to war. Imagine that!

http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_032708WAB_mcdermott_iraq_trip_response_TP.7d24d1e.html [Broken]

Last edited by a moderator: May 3, 2017
6. Mar 27, 2008

### Poop-Loops

George W Bush?

7. Mar 27, 2008

### Art

The article you reference doesn't mention treason, accidental or otherwise. Is this simply your own personal twist on it? Or do you have evidence the 3 congressmen 'accidently' levied war on the US or gave their enemies aid and comfort?

8. Mar 27, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

They went to Iraq for the purpose of helping Iraq prevent the war by becoming a part of the Iraqi propaganda machine. They were tricked into being agents of the Iraqi intelligence service.
I've never heard of it, but I don't see why there couldn't be, just as there are different degrees to murder. Treason is rarely punished in the US anyway, though.

9. Mar 27, 2008

### Poop-Loops

So they are actually American Heroes?

I mean, they would have saved 4000 soldiers and counting, not to mention all the Iraqis that died, and all the money wasted.

10. Mar 27, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

Did you happen to read the first sentence of the article you posted?

11. Mar 27, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

I can't seem to find what the spy was charged with other than "conspiracy". I can't imagine it would be anything but treason, but I don't know.
Yes: They were agents of the Iraqi government, attempting to undermine international efforts to keep Iraq disarmed after the Gulf War. It's right there in black and white in the article. It couldn't be clearer.

12. Mar 27, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

By motivating our enemies, they cost lives. Propaganda is a powerful motivator. Such things are rarely punished, however, which is why Jane Fonda is still alive.

Note, I didn't say there was anything they could be punished for, much less that they should be. What they did was wrong, but falls into a crack that the law doesn't adequately cover.

Last edited: Mar 27, 2008
13. Mar 27, 2008

### Poop-Loops

They weren't our enemies yet, and they flew there on Saddam's cost. What's the big deal?

And what is this "they cost lives" business? It's been 5 years and their motivation has gotten stronger the longer we have been there. If you think that talking to Saddam somehow made this worse then I don't know what to say, besides "I know why Bush got elected twice now."

14. Mar 27, 2008

### lisab

Staff Emeritus

Did you read *beyond* the first sentence? Here's the fifth paragraph:

The lawmakers are not named in the indictment but the dates correspond to a trip by McDermott of Washington, David Bonior of Michigan and Mike Thompson of California. None was charged and Justice Department spokesman Dean Boyd said investigators "have no information whatsoever" any of them knew the trip was underwritten by Saddam.

15. Mar 27, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

You didn't actually disagree with me in that post, lisa.

Yes, they weren't charged and they probably didn't know. Nevertheless, they were acting on behalf of the Iraqi intelligence service. They were unknowing partners in the conspiracy. That's the definition of "patsy".

16. Mar 27, 2008

### Gokul43201

Staff Emeritus
I don't see anything that says they purported to help Iraq, or that they intended to become a part of the Iraqi propaganda machine, as you've claimed.

And how exactly did they function as agents of the IIS?

We can get to this later. Can we first establish what actions were by carried out by these people that would qualify them as acting against the interests of the US?

17. Mar 27, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

Do you understand why the guy who funded the trip was arrested?
You are saying you can't see how talking to Saddam Hussein and taking his side might have made him believe he could get away with certain things? At the time of this visit, Hussein was using the Oil for Food program as his own personal income. At the time, it wasn't Americans he was killing, it was Iraqis. This action was at least as harmful to them as to us.

18. Mar 28, 2008

### Ivan Seeking

Staff Emeritus
Oh lord, accidental treason!?!?!? Talk about needing to study definitions!
http://www.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=treason

19. Mar 28, 2008

### Gokul43201

Staff Emeritus
<semiglib>From what I've read so far, these guys should be commended. When the administration was bullying Congress into making a big mistake, these folks decided that it might be a good idea to do some checking on their own...and they didn't even use taxpayer money for it.

And if you really want to talk about treason, I know some Presidents that have installed dictators, bankrolled terrorist organizations and engaged in illegal arms trades with enemies.

Last edited: Mar 28, 2008
20. Mar 28, 2008

### Staff: Mentor

Sorry, it should be obvious, but that article makes only passing reference to the purpose of the trip (they were anti-war). The purpose of the trip was to make Saddam look good in order to persuade people to vote against the war. The were even criticized at the time for seeming to be speaking on behalf of Saddam. Here's another article that talks a little more about them:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-03-27-iraq-trip_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip
The trip was paid for by the IIS, which means they were acting on the IIS's behalf.
Sure. Can we agree that:

1. Muthanna Al-Hanooti orchestrated a conspiracy (he was charged with it).
2. These congressmen were participants in that conspiracy.