An amazonian tribe that can only count up to five

[BenVitale]

How is it possible that an amazonian tribe can only count up to five?

An Amazonian tribe, the Munduruku, an indigenous group of about 7,000 people whose language has no tenses, no plurals and no words for numbers beyond five.

Unfortunately, the copyright on the article has expired.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/mar/31/alex-bellos-numberland

 

[Evo]

The Piraha tribe of Brazil can't count at all. They never developed the concept of counting.

Living without Numbers or Time
By Rafaela von Bredow

The Pirahã people have no history, no descriptive words and no subordinate clauses. That makes their language one of the strangest in the world -- and also one of the most hotly debated by linguists.

Linguistics generally focuses on what idioms across the world have in common. But the Pirahã language -- and this is what makes it so significant -- departs from what were long thought to be essential features of all languages.

The language is incredibly spare. The Pirahã use only three pronouns. They hardly use any words associated with time and past tense verb conjugations don't exist. Apparently colors aren't very important to the Pirahãs, either -- they don't describe any of them in their language. But of all the curiosities, the one that bugs linguists the most is that Pirahã is likely the only language in the world that doesn't use subordinate clauses. Instead of saying, "When I have finished eating, I would like to speak with you," the Pirahãs say, "I finish eating, I speak with you."

Equally perplexing: In their everyday lives, the Pirahãs appear to have no need for numbers. During the time he spent with them, Everett never once heard words like "all," "every," and "more" from the Pirahãs. There is one word, "hói," which does come close to the numeral 1. But it can also mean "small" or describe a relatively small amount -- like two small fish as opposed to one big fish, for example. And they don't even appear to count without language, on their fingers for example, in order to determine how many pieces of meat they have to grill for the villagers, how many days of meat they have left from the anteaters they've hunted or how much they demand from Brazilian traders for their six baskets of Brazil nuts.

The debate amongst linguists about the absence of all numbers in the Pirahã language broke out after Peter Gordon, a psycholinguist at New York's Columbia University, visited the Pirahãs and tested their mathematical abilities. For example, they were asked to repeat patterns created with between one and 10 small batteries. Or they were to remember whether Gordon had placed three or eight nuts in a can.

The results, published in Science magazine, were astonishing. The Pirahãs simply don't get the concept of numbers. His study, Gordon says, shows that "a people without terms for numbers doesn't develop the ability to determine exact numbers."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,414291,00.html

 

[fluidistic]

Amazingly interesting Evo.

 

[epenguin]

The Piraha tribe of Brazil can't count at all. They never developed the concept of counting.

Sorry, the rules are we don't help them unless they show they have made an effort.

 

[Evo]

Sorry, the rules are we don't help them unless they show they have made an effort.

OMG! Don't do that! I spewed all over my computer!

 

[lisab]

That's really interesting.

As I read the article, I kept wondering, how would a unique language and culture come to exist? Nothing like it, anywhere, according to the article. No past tense, numbers, colors, stories, or art? Not even sentimental memories of dead relatives?

[SPECULATION] Could it be that at some time in the past every tribe member, except for a group of very young children, died? These children would have been old enough to have learned rudimentary language, and how to forage food from the jungle of course. They survived somehow, but all the tribe's culture would be forgotten, leaving a language and culture about what you would expect from ~3-year-olds. [/SPECULATION]

 

[Evo]

That's really interesting.

As I read the article, I kept wondering, how would a unique language and culture come to exist? Nothing like it, anywhere, according to the article. No past tense, numbers, colors, stories, or art? Not even sentimental memories of dead relatives?

[SPECULATION] Could it be that at some time in the past every tribe member, except for a group of very young children, died? These children would have been old enough to have learned rudimentary language, and how to forage food from the jungle of course. They survived somehow, but all the tribe's culture would be forgotten, leaving a language and culture about what you would expect from ~3-year-olds. [/SPECULATION]

That's really interesting Lisab. The Piraha are indeed different. I ran across them several years ago and have done a lot of thinking about how they seem to percieve things in the most basic terms of "now" and just living. No superstitions, no religion, no need for thinking that's not directly related to going about daily life.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

But the Pirahãs proved to be completely different. Years ago, Everett attempted to teach them to learn to count. Over a period of eight months, he tried in vain to teach them the Portuguese numbers used by the Brazilians -- um, dois, tres. "In the end, not a single person could count to ten," the researcher says.

That is simply amazing. How could language alone influence such basic abilities?

Heh, if true that language is this siginficant, it makes me wonder if a language could be engineered with the goal of maximizing our intellectual abilities.

 

[russ_watters]

That is simply amazing. How could language alone influence such basic abilities?

Must be a use-it-or-lose-it proposition. That if we don't use the parts of our brain that deal with certain types of cognition, we don't pass on traits for development of those parts (or even, keeping that part going). I wonder if anyone has tested these guys to see if they are all color blind or have reduced color vision.

...unless humans have a short timespan for development of those parts of the brain when they are children. Ie, that some concepts can only be learned if learned as a child.

 

[CRGreathouse]

It's worth mentioning that much of Daniel Everett's work on the Pirahã has been called into question. I tend to support Everett, but there's disagreement among experts. In particular, it's not clear that certain aspects (counting, of course, but also color and grammar as I recall) as as described; some think these have been sensationalized by Everett.

See, for example, http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~nevins/npr09.pdf . I think there may have been a counter-rebuttal and perhaps even a counter-counter-rebuttal...

Edit: Am I really the first to mention Sapir-Whorf on this thread?

 

[Evo]

It's worth mentioning that much of Daniel Everett's work on the Pirahã has been called into question. I tend to support Everett, but there's disagreement among experts. In particular, it's not clear that certain aspects (counting, of course, but also color and grammar as I recall) as as described; some think these have been sensationalized by Everett.

See, for example, http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~nevins/npr09.pdf . I think there may have been a counter-rebuttal and perhaps even a counter-counter-rebuttal...

Edit: Am I really the first to mention Sapir-Whorf on this thread?

Ah, that's just debating his conclusions of the link between grammar and culture. The Piraha still lack the need for counting, colors, myths, etc...

Thanks CR, it will be interesting to read more about it.

I'd like to know more about their unusual culture.

 

[Borek]

I ran across them several years ago

Oh no, Evo in the rainforest hunting amazonian tribes

But the story is fascinating, thank you for sharing.

I recall reading that Australian Aboriginals don't know left and right, as they alwyas orientate themselves to the the world directions (that is, John is not on your left, he is east of you). This is in a way similar - different world through different language.

That is, assuming all these stories are real.

 

[lisab]

That is simply amazing. How could language alone influence such basic abilities?

Heh, if true that language is this siginficant, it makes me wonder if a language could be engineered with the goal of maximizing our intellectual abilities.

I experienced a something similar when I learned Dirac notation. I already had a good grasp of linear algebra, but learning that new notation allowed me to use those ideas in totally new ways.

I'm amazed at how powerful notation is - I think of it as a scaffold for thoughts. So while I'm not surprised language is the same way, it does surprise me that its effect reaches into such fundamental things as simple counting.

 

[waht]

They are not the only primitive tribe. a lot of people in highly developed nations are even more backward.

 

[Chuzzlewit]

Ah, that's just debating his conclusions of the link between grammar and culture. The Piraha still lack the need for counting, colors, myths, etc...

Actually, the bits about colors and myths are in serious dispute, along with most of the other facts about the language that are supposed to be remarkable. The "Piraha Exceptionality" paper cites work by the Brazilian anthropologist Gonçalves on the myths they're supposed to not have. Everett's reply to this is that the myths are borrowed from other people and that Goncalves didn't speak the language well enough to know what he was hearing.

The counting is also disputed in that paper. Everyone agrees they lack numbers above two, but the new claim that they don't even have one and two is criticized on factual grounds.

 

[brainstorm]

Are there any transcriptions of poetry or lyrical songs that these people have created? It would be interesting to analyze the meanings that are institutionalized using such vocab and grammar.

 

[pgsleep]

"all languages have black and white. If there are three words, the third is red. If there are 4, then it's green or yellow. If five then whichever didn't make fourth, yellow or green. if six, it's blue. if seven, it's brown. if eight or more then purple pink orange and grey are added in any order." -martin gardner. order and surprise. oxford university press (1984)

 

[brainstorm]

"all languages have black and white. If there are three words, the third is red. If there are 4, then it's green or yellow. If five then whichever didn't make fourth, yellow or green. if six, it's blue. if seven, it's brown. if eight or more then purple pink orange and grey are added in any order." -martin gardner. order and surprise. oxford university press (1984)

If black and white were the only color words in a language, they would probably refer to darkness or lightness of hue generally, wouldn't they? So, for example, black could refer to dark grey, navy blue, forest green, or blood red while white could refer to yellow, sky-blue, light grey, or beige - I assume.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Red as a third makes sense as well, since it's nigh unequivocally the color people see the strongest.

 

[brainstorm]

Red as a third makes sense as well, since it's nigh unequivocally the color people see the strongest.

Plus it is the color of blood. But wouldn't the sound be used to denote blood and perhaps only later be used to describe the reddish color of something else?

 

[pgsleep]

If black and white were the only color words in a language, they would probably refer to darkness or lightness of hue generally, wouldn't they?

That's what i gathered. This little excerpt is just a loose generalization though.. obviously there are some exceptions.

 

[alxm]

Must be a use-it-or-lose-it proposition. That if we don't use the parts of our brain that deal with certain types of cognition, we don't pass on traits for development of those parts (or even, keeping that part going).

I don't think it's that extreme (genetic selection). More likely it's developmental; if you don't learn certain things before a certain age, you'll have great difficulty aquiring them later. It's pretty well established that speech has to be learned before a certain age, or you'll likely never be able to speak. Similarly, we all know it's easier for younger people to acquire languages.

language itself is very use-it-or-lose it, of course. If there's no need for a particular word/concept, it quickly disappears.

I almost wonder if 'red' shouldn't be first. After all, "red" is the only color in English with a definite common Proto-Indo-European root that has the same meaning. Whereas "black" wasn't the same word even in Old English (sweart).

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Wiki, sorry,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_and_Kay
and,
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WJ9-4DV48F7-1&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F01%2F2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1361726558&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=388d166ff03fad02d24250924e24c2bd