Are Ghosts a Global Phenomenon Beyond Mythology?

[Overdose]

You don't know the most common things about mental illness and you're trying to suggest I'm being incautious. First you said no such dynamic existed: you'd never heard of such a thing. I give you a link, and now you're urging me to be cautious like you know anything about it.

Dont be so presumptuous, i know enough about mental illness to be having this conversation,
The fact is your original atempt at trying to equate a folie à deux with mass hallucinations was completely unfounded and misunderstands the dynamic of this particular behaviour. And if youre going to leap to such conclusions you should at the very least have some background information on the family, did one member have a hold over the others? were the family secluded leading a near hermit like existence? even if you knew any of these to be the case (which you dont) its still a stretch to conclude that this would ever lead to group hallucinations.

If you would bother to research, not ghost stories, but mental illness and neurological disorders, you would start to see that there is a good basis for defining the difference between an hallucination and something that has a basis in reality. Having defined that, we can start to try and determine which is which in individual cases.

For someone who claims the monopoly on knowledge in this area, you should at least understand that at times there is an incredibly tenuous difference between hallucinating and reality. You may well have hallucinated today without knowing it, then again you may not and everything youve seen may have been real. Sometimes the only way to really know is if 'someone else saw it' well this is one of the chief reasons i believe in ghosts, if you do your research you'll find that some people have seen the same thing in the same building or house separated sometimes by a very long period of time. In fact I am lucky enough to know some of these people and even live in a house where people have experienced the same things with shocking similarity.

A neuroscientist who has access to all kinds of brain scanning devices and also many patients with various disorders might be in a position to say he has "reason to believe" something unusual about the brain, but, really, you are just speculating. You don't have any reason to believe anything about the brain.

I really don't know why id have to be a neuroscientist to understand when I am experiencing way beyond what a human being normally would. Quite frankly
i have enough of a brain to work that out on my own, and so should you.

Epilepsy gave Van Gogh a perspective on painting no one else had ever dreamed of. LSD completely altered R. Crumb's drawing style and subject matter. Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder and Directed Hallucinations made Nikola Tesla one of the most remarkable electrical engineers of his time. If you think any of these people's brains were/are working "more efficiently" and were not malfunctioning, think again.

If you understand that people with 'malfunctioning brains' can create some of the greatest art and inventions in human history (ok maybe not crumb lol) then i can't for the life of me work out how you can't see how saying these people had 'malfunctioning' minds is greatly underselling what the mind is actually doing by invoking such crude machine-gone-wrong terminology.

Its like you made my arugment for me by listing all those great minds but failed to reach the obvious conclusion, theyre far from malfunctioning theyre exceeding normal human potential, sometimes at a cost, but when is there ever not.

Apparently you are going to just wipe the story of the stroke patients out of your mind. One side of their body is completely paralyzed and yet they seem to believe it is working perfectly. It is impossible that it is working perfectly, yet they think it is. This is proof positive that people can have the most extrordinary, impossible hallucinations, and yet believe them completely and not even question them.

I didnt forget it, it just was never an issue as i never stated that it was impossible for someone to hallucinate and not know it.

No one else has ever heard the voices that the schizophrenic guy here experiences, not me, not his family, not anyone else in the building, not his doctor, not even any other schizophrenic person: the voices they hear are completely different "personalities" than the ones he hears. Every person who hears disembodied voices hears their own individual set of them.

And if youve read the thread youd see that a schizophrenic man has already posted and informed us that other people have experienced his 'hallucinations' with him. It isn't always as clear cut as youd like.

It seems patently obvious that if someone is paralyzed on a whole side of their body, they should know it. It seems so obvious, it should go without saying. Yet, the cases Ramachandran and others have studied show the strange truth: that some people who become paralyzed also lose the ability to realize thy are paralyzed.

So people can believe things that arnt true? so what, people can believe things that turn out to be completey true also. Do some research on sprites, pilots offen saw them when flying at high altitudes and insisted that they had seen these upward electrical charges. However what was seen was always put down to tiredness, lack of visual stimulation leading to hallucination etc.
Of course as these things were eventially captured on film (in the late 80s i believe), it was finally realized that the various pilots judgement's on what theyd seen had been accurate and should have been listened to long ago.

To summarise if I am to take your lesson on board that people can sometimes get things wrong and believe things that arnt happening are happening (which if you read back through the thread i have never argued against). Then you should take my lesson that rejecting someones take on events out of hand because they saw or experienced something very uncommon or beyond the norm is equally as foolish and has proven to be so.

I think you're on very shakey ground taking all these stories as indications of anything other than the fact that people see what they think are ghosts. The reason I say that is because if you follow any thread on any subject what you find is lots of people giving incomplete and sometimes inaccurate accounts of lots of subjects
People compress information for brevity's sake, and they also speak off the top of their heads from memory, sometimes, and get things wrong. Verbal accounts can't be relied upon, not with anything.

Sorry completely wrong, verbal accounts can be relied apon (in thousands if not milliions of cases) and in one specific case as i have illustrated earlier, yes i agree group accounts can vary between people and memory isn't perfect, but that's no reason to discount people's accounts and people's stories outright, Its wise to be skeptical but foolish to refuse to listen.

Anyway I am done with this thread (or at least our conversation), its been fun, but we're going round in circles and its turning into zoob's crusade to educate the ignorant masses about hallucinations and partial seizures and its leaving barely any room for other opinions and interpretations.

 

[Overdose]

Check out this movie http://www.strangehappenings.methyus.com/Videos/Tinker%27s-Creek-Ouija-Board-Orb.wmv from the site http://www.strangehappenings.methyus.com/Tinker%27s-Creek-Investigation.htm

I think it would be difficult to fake, what do you think? This site has quite a few interesting videos taken during their paranormal investigations.

Great video, it might be real, prehaps not its hard to say when youre viewing it in compressed video format. Although i will say that in haunted videos i have seen which i don't doubt the validity of I've seen the same type of orbs. It seems that ghosts when visable offen seem to be composed of light, or to be a light projection, which would explain the transparency of ghosts in a lot of photographs and videos, prehaps the orb of light is its natural form, or the most efficient form for moving from place to place. Just a thought.

How can physicists talk of Dark Matter, Dark Energy, the many dimensions of Superstrings and branes etc. and still pooh pooh what so many people have described from daily experience. Science may present abstract, mathematical proofs but I will accept my own experiences any day.

I completely agree, i would never take a second hand truth no matter how well argued over my own experiences.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It does seem that just as some people need mysteries in life, others need to believe that there are none.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The fact is your original atempt at trying to equate a folie à deux with mass hallucinations was completely unfounded and misunderstands the dynamic of this particular behaviour.

Where was my attempt to equate folie a deux with mass hallucinations? I brought it up in reference to families, not masses.

And if youre going to leap to such conclusions you should at the very least have some background information on the family, did one member have a hold over the others? were the family secluded leading a near hermit like existence? even if you knew any of these to be the case (which you dont) its still a stretch to conclude that this would ever lead to group hallucinations.

I have background on the families. I told you, I saw them interviewed on TV documentaries. I'm not jumping to any wild conclusions invoking folie a deux.

For someone who claims the monopoly on knowledge in this area...

Huh? Monopoly? I just got done complaining to you that you don't even bother to research neurological and psychological information that could apply.

Sometimes the only way to really know is if 'someone else saw it' well this is one of the chief reasons i believe in ghosts, if you do your research you'll find that some people have seen the same thing in the same building or house separated sometimes by a very long period of time. In fact I am lucky enough to know some of these people and even live in a house where people have experienced the same things with shocking similarity.

I think I've said at least twice that these sorts of cases are much more worthy of a look into.

I really don't know why id have to be a neuroscientist to understand when I am experiencing way beyond what a human being normally would.

You wouldn't. You would have to be a neuroscientist to come to some informed "belief" that this represented a better than normal functioning of the brain.

If you understand that people with 'malfunctioning brains' can create some of the greatest art and inventions in human history (ok maybe not crumb lol) then i can't for the life of me work out how you can't see how saying these people had 'malfunctioning' minds is greatly underselling what the mind is actually doing by invoking such crude machine-gone-wrong terminology.

No. Take the case of the manic doctor who performed some extrordinary number of physicals on kids being inducted into the army in an extrordinarily short amount of time. The army was so surprised at how fast she fullfilled her contract that they thought she had faked all the reports. Each candidate was rechecked, and she turned out to have done it all accurately, so they had to pay up.

Now, you might argue that she was not malfunctioning, but performing far better than normal. That is what she believed. And she kept believing it more and more till a few weeks later she was pretty much convinced she was possessed of superpowers. A little while later, she began going around saying she was the equal of God and was going to have sex with him. She started ranting and screaming alot. Eventually she was taken to the psyche ward.

The initial supercompetent phase of her mania was, in fact, the first stage of the malfuctioning of her brain. It went from there to incompetent ranting, and eventually she crashed into depression.

Its like you made my arugment for me by listing all those great minds but failed to reach the obvious conclusion, theyre far from malfunctioning theyre exceeding normal human potential, sometimes at a cost, but when is there ever not.

It is a malfuction if it is part of a constellation of symptoms that, taken as a whole, makes the person's life worse. That is true of all the people I mentioned. The OCD that drove Tesla to be so supremely meticulous was not a strength, but a compulsion to which he was a slave. He couldn't eat soup, for instance, until he had measured the bowl and calculated it's volume. He couldn't walk past a certain building because he would be seized with the belief that he had to walk around the entire block three times before he could return home. He was convinced something terrible would happen if he didn't perform rituals like this. He had dozens of these fears and rituals to quel them that drove his life.

The emotional and perceptual havok that epilepsy had on Van Gogh's life drove him to suicide at 37.

I didnt forget it, it just was never an issue as i never stated that it was impossible for someone to hallucinate and not know it.

I think what you said was that most people aren't so ignorant as to be hallucinating and not be aware of it. It isn't a matter of ignorance. Somehow, as with the stroke patients, whatever is causing the hallucinations also removes the ability to question them.

And if youve read the thread youd see that a schizophrenic man has already posted and informed us that other people have experienced his 'hallucinations' with him. It isn't always as clear cut as youd like.

I've been posting in the thread from the start and somehow missed this. What post # contains the report by a schizophrenic man about sharing his auditory hallucinations with other people?

So people can believe things that arnt true? so what,

So, don't automatically believe every story you hear.

people can believe things that turn out to be completey true also. Do some research on sprites, pilots offen saw them when flying at high altitudes and insisted that they had seen these upward electrical charges. However what was seen was always put down to tiredness, lack of visual stimulation leading to hallucination etc.
Of course as these things were eventially captured on film (in the late 80s i believe), it was finally realized that the various pilots judgement's on what theyd seen had been accurate and should have been listened to long ago.

"...should have been listened to long ago," is 20-20 hindsight on a phenomenon that eventually ended up being proven. All such phenomena are preceeded by unsubstantiated reports, but not all unsubstantiated reports are followed by documentation.

(In the matter of freak electrical or accoustic or weather phenomena, you're preaching to the choir: I'm always arguing in favor of those things. I spent a very long thread arguing in favor of a freak electrical cause for "spontaneous" fires in a town in Italy, when most were saying "arson" or "exageration".)

To summarise if I am to take your lesson on board that people can sometimes get things wrong and believe things that arnt happening are happening (which if you read back through the thread i have never argued against). Then you should take my lesson that rejecting someones take on events out of hand because they saw or experienced something very uncommon or beyond the norm is equally as foolish and has proven to be so.

You have lost sight of my original point, which is not that a particular story should be rejected because it's outside the norm, but that, in the case of "apparitions" it isn't possible to distinguish hallucination from what might be of substance by simply hearing the story.

Sorry completely wrong, verbal accounts can be relied apon (in thousands if not milliions of cases) and in one specific case as i have illustrated earlier, yes i agree group accounts can vary between people and memory isn't perfect, but that's no reason to discount people's accounts and people's stories outright, Its wise to be skeptical but foolish to refuse to listen.

Verbal accounts can't be relied upon. I base that on what people say in the hard physics forums: you ask a question and get a different answer from everyone who posts. Often they end up arguing with each other. What I feel like I can trust to take away from all the cumulative ghost stories I've heard is that people do actually see what appear to be human figures appearing and disappearing inexplicably. I don't refuse to listen, but I certainly don't buy any particular "definitive" explanation, and I do think a large percentage are hallucinations and illusions of one sort or another.

Anyway I am done with this thread (or at least our conversation), its been fun, but we're going round in circles and its turning into zoob's crusade to educate the ignorant masses about hallucinations and partial seizures and its leaving barely any room for other opinions and interpretations.

You'll be back.

You did mention the stone tape, but other than that, I am really the only person who has offered any alternative opinions and interpretations to "ghosts": the spirits of dead people. In addition to hallucinations, I've mentioned, demons, pookas, the "carrie" phenomenon, and people traveling through time. The Amityville Horror was just remade, so maybe the demon explanation will come back in fashion, but just now it seems no one is interested in thinking in terms outside of the "spirits of dead people."

 

[PIT2]

Im curious about the fogs that appear on pictures so often (i think theyr called ectoplasms), is there an explanation for them?

 

[SGT]

Curious that in a forum named Scepticism and Debunking only zoobieshoe and I seem to be sceptics!

 

[PIT2]

Curious that in a forum named Scepticism and Debunking only zoobieshoe and I seem to be sceptics!

Seems like u just had a hallucination

 

[zoobyshoe]

Curious that in a forum named Scepticism and Debunking only zoobieshoe and I seem to be sceptics!

That's really just the way it's been lately. Over time the ratio varies considerably. I am also not always on the skeptical side of a story or phenomenon.

 

[PIT2]

I was talking about these kind of 'ectoplasm' images:

http://www.creativespirits.net/paranormal/pics/ectoplasm_lg.jpg
http://www.alienufoart.com/images/MesaEcto.jpg
http://www.cprs.info/gallery/viewers/redbarn_ectoplasm.jpg

I have always assumed that these things were some kind of error somewhere in the photographic proces. Does anyone know what the explanation is?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There are three basic causes that I know of: Lens flares, light leaks, and smoke. Here is a pic taken by Tsu in Hawaii. She had no idea what it was but I was able to duplicate the effect by using cigarette smoke.

http://img236.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img236&image=dsc001933cc.jpg

Try it yourself and then compare to many "ghost" images. Be sure to use the flash. That's the key.

 

[PIT2]

That makes sense. I don't understand why that didnt cross my mind, perhaps it was too obvious And of course, they may have auto-ignored and forgotten about the smoke, then see the pictures days later and wonder what's going on.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

they may have auto-ignored and forgotten about the smoke, then see the pictures days later and wonder what's going on.

This is exactly what happened to Tsu. She had no idea what it was. We assume that someone was walking by with a cigarette.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Here is one of the pics that I took.

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/4324/dsc002984wa.jpg

It was windy that night but easy to see that on a calm night I could have produced many of the effects seen on the net.

 

[genie]

That makes sense. I don't understand why that didnt cross my mind, perhaps it was too obvious And of course, they may have auto-ignored and forgotten about the smoke, then see the pictures days later and wonder what's going on.

sooooo the penny drops

 

[invalid]

Greek Ghost

OK, you actually mean an orchestral rendition of Greek music. Beng performed by an orchestra doesn't make music "classical," just "orchestral."

I wondered if you might be referring to something that sounded ancient, as if from the classical Greek era.


Was this an ethnic Greek neighborhood? Lots of Greek restaurants and buisnesses?

True enough I -incorrectly- often refer to any form of orchestral music as 'classical' but especially in the case of Greek music, classical is very misleading.

Yes it was north of the Danforth in Toronto (Greek Town). Though most of the neighbourhood wasn't Greek but WASP as far as I could tell.

 

[jmatejka]

An interesting thread indeed!

Too bad it has been "dead" so long. I'm (1) year into writing a book "Ghost Physics". Ghost Physics, an oxymoron, correct?

If "Hauntings" exist, why can't Physics help us with proof? Many here may "know" the answer to this.

Has any Physicist ever taken Hauntings/etc seriously? Yes, many have for more than 100 years. William Crookes, discoverer of Thallium was one. Do any Scientists/Physicists/Physicians currently study any of this? Yes, The Society of Scientific Exploration is one such group of Peer Reviewed"Academics"

http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/articles.html

In a couple weeks, I will attend the SSE conference in Boulder, Colorado. My friends Physics Professor Richard Blade(former Physics Chair of University of Colorado at Colorado Springs) and Physics Professor Bobby Bracewell, also former U.C.C.S Professor will meet me there, as my "Scientific Sanity Check". I am fortunate to have their opinions on this controversial subject matter.

Like many others in this thread, I have experienced things that "Physics" would have a difficult time explaining.

I am curious "if" you are a skeptic, would you also agree that there has NEVER been any evidence of Random Number Generators "apparently" being influenece by Psi(PK), such as work by PEAR(Princeton), etc.

I am a believer in "Paranormal Mechanisms", the difficulty lies in researching and defining these "slippery" mechanisms.

I have spent a long long time talking to Physicist's and other academics about this subject. It is interesting what is said "behind closed doors" and what is said "publicly". Where do we go? and with what evidence? is often the question.

Sadly the "Paranormal Field" is full of crackpots and bad science. SSE is the exception,(in my opinion).

I have tried to keep this reply as Scientific as possible, I expect the slings and arrows to start, fortunately I have a "thick skin"

All opinions and replies are appreciated, Anyone is welcome to PM me with questions, or reply to my post.

Regards, John

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hello jmatejka,

Please note that while I agree the SSE journal does attempt to rise above the internet clutter, it does not meet our minimum standard here as a scientific resource. Papers may only be referenced as anecdotal evidence. Any related theories and conclusions are not appropriate for discussion.

From our general guidelines:

A list of journals that may be used as academic references can be found at the following link:
http://scientific.thomson.com/index.html

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5374

 

[jmatejka]

Hello jmatejka,

Please note that while I agree the SSE journal does attempt to rise above the internet clutter, it does not meet our minimum standard here as a scientific resource. Papers may only be referenced as anecdotal evidence. Any related theories and conclusions are not appropriate for discussion.

From our general guidelines:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=5374

Thanks for the clarification. SSE is currently "evaluating" it's position/credibility in the Academic/Scientific Community. Your answer will be of interest to them.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Like many others in this thread, I have experienced things that "Physics" would have a difficult time explaining.

For example?

 

[jmatejka]

For example?

My entire family hearing furniture drag across the attic floor. Every light being turned off in a Alarm Secured residence, while we left for dinner(multiple times). A "radio" mimic my voice, and words, multiple times.



I would'nt doubt some "residual" haunt type activity,especially sounds, has an undiscoverd Physics mechanism.

"Periodic Acoustic Soliton" is one of my theories. No good foundation for this "guess" yet.

Here in Virginia, there is a Church more than 150 years old. Mostly stone construction. Approximately 5 years ago the retiring Pastor called a Paranormal Group that I interact with. The Pastor asked them if they would like to investigate the Church's "Ghostly Choir".

Apparently "more often than not" at sunrise, A choir can be heard singing, both inside the church and outside(near the windows). The Paranormal group showed up with recording equipment and waited, at dawn, all heard the "Choir".

The singing was faint, it was actually loudest outside the Church, by the windows. I interviewed (4) people that all "heard" the same thing. They seem credible to me, the singing seemed to fade in and out, like a signal getting stronger and weaker. The singing was recorded and a "song" was later identified.

I seriously doubt departed Choir members meet at dawn to sing their favorite songs. The same song, sang in the same place for more than 150 years, a standing wave? Pure unsupported conjecture of course!

I plan to investigate this claim myself in the near future.



With regard to "some" in SSE. Psi(PK) mechanisms seem to offer one possible "mechanism". Psi(PK) real?, Has Psi(PK) been shown to influence Random Number Generator distributions?

I say yes, more importantly, many Physicists I coordinate with "say yes" , perhaps more behind closed doors than publicly. I understand the "statistical proof" issue, and controversy of the "data".

"If" you accept RNG influence, where do you go from there? This is what I am currently researching. Literally hundreds of Academic Psi(PK) papers have been generated, what is to be believed? Fortunately I know a couple "not easily duped" Physicists who have witnessed "apparent" Psi(PK) Phenomena, going allllll the way back to the late 60's with Ted Serios.

Ted, could seem like a showman prankster with a skill for deception and fakery, and maybe he was at times, but, influence a faraday caged camera 20 feet away? What do we make of this.

I guess it is a matter of what you "believe", I have witnessed enough to look for "other" answers. PK, currently seems the most "reasonable" of the "unreasonable". All my models are subject to revision, as better data becomes available.

You asked........ hopefully not waayyy too much information.

Hopefully this being the "lounge" I didnt violate,

"Any related theories and conclusions are not appropriate for discussion"

 

[imiyakawa]

I honestly don't see how you'll be able to infer a physical theory for supposed hauntings of ghosts if they're real. Or are you more looking to explain the proposed psi effect from parapsychology?

Also, you say that you "believe" psi. I dare say it's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of reading the relevant journals, their critical appraisals, and coming to an expectation of what the likely outcome will be based on your readings, whilst best trying to keep bias and dissonance out of your reasoning as much as possible. That's the only way forward when it comes to evaluating contentious fields.

 

[jmatejka]

I honestly don't see how you'll be able to infer a physical theory for supposed hauntings of ghosts if they're real. Or are you more looking to explain the proposed psi effect from parapsychology?

Also, you say that you "believe" psi. I dare say it's not a matter of belief. It's a matter of reading the relevant journals, their critical appraisals, and coming to an expectation of what the likely outcome will be based on your readings, whilst best trying to keep bias and dissonance out of your reasoning as much as possible. That's the only way forward when it comes to evaluating contentious fields.

I'm not sure "explanation" of anything is possible. I "think" there may be a link between Psi and Haunting "symptoms". Psi induced noises, etc, perhaps? I hope to ask better "educated" questions, inspire thinking, rather than explain anything. Functional models(which do not directly reflect reality), exist in Physics. The best I could ever hope to do, would be to make "models" that could be supported, or invalidated.

Critical, Rational, Logical thinking is what got us to the moon, created modern technology, and drove us from Illogical Mysticism. I agree and support this.

"If" my "experiences" and "experiences" of others are credible, how do we gather data,(From a Physics Perspective)".

"Ghost Hunting Researchers" are perhaps "mostly" naive, with Gauss meters, audio recording devices, and similar tools of the trade. I "believe" some interesting anomalies have been recorded, but nothing I would consider "good proof" of anything. At best, I would consider this data, a "symptom".

"Ghost Hunting Researchers" lack of "proof" comes from lack of Intellectial abilities or lack of Sophisticated equipment? I believe NO. It may be from lack of "appropriate/applicable" technology/methodology.

One Professor asked me, "how do you expect to get proof without a PK meter". No such meter exists. Is PK the root of some symptoms? maybe? for what I personally experienced, it seems more reasonable than my deceased Uncle causing it.

Ignorance here is the "worst case" scenario. Ignorance of what Science can and can't offer. Ignorance of "seemingly" unexplainable phenomema. Ignorance of other possibilities. This is a "slippery" subject at best, I would not dare speak in absolutes about anything related.

I think this discussion is healthy, even if it exposes ignorance on my part. Cleaning ignorance from my mental closet is a good thing, correct?

 

[gkc2294]

Well the idea of ghosts have been around for thousanads of years and is accepted by most religions. People don't believe in things that can't be proven for thousands.