Are There Non-Math-Intensive Careers in Technology?

[FishmanGeertz]

I have a learning disability in math comprehension, a mild case of dyscalculia. I heard that computer science and programming are extremely math-intensive.

In school, I excelled in every other subject except math. I graduated HS with a 3.6 GPA, I was given individualized assistance in math. I have a mental block for anything beyond simple algebra.

Are there any careers or educational courses for computers and technology which are not math-intensive? Other than programming/compsci/electronic engineering?

There are IT (Information Technology) jobs/courses which doesn't necessarily focus on computer science and programming.

 

[JaredJames]

As far as I'm aware, a bachelors in computer science wasn't particularly math intensive.

My friend did one and he never mentioned anything about maths to me.

I don't know why you think programming uses a lot of maths, I've been writing software for a few years now on the side and it's only when I specifically do maths related stuff that it comes up. 90% of the time that isn't the case.

Any engineering on the other hand will involve maths, particularly electronics.

 

[micromass]

Of course, programming will not be much math, but it is possible that a computer science major will have to take some math classes.

For example, CS-majors in my university have to take a discrete math class and some kind of "mathematical methods" class (which, I believe, is just a weak version of calculus and linear algebra).

So it's quite possible that your university will require you to take math courses. But it's best if you check each university and see what it's requirements are.

 

[mal4mac]

Programming is more related to logic & 'language learning' than mathematics. My experience is the same as jarednjames'.

Some IQ tests check separately for mathematical, logical, and linguistic ability. You might want to take one of those to see if you are strong in logical & linguistic ability.

Better, though, would be take a programming class and see how you get on.

The IT (Information Technology) jobs/courses path might be a good one for you. I used to support a MSc IT conversion class - a UK course for graduates of non-mathematical subjects. Mathematical ability wasn't stretched beyond simple algebra. Some had never done more than scrape a pass in simple algebra, and they mostly passed and got good IT jobs...

 

[Femme_physics]

Every programmer I know tells me that programming doesn't require math, which seems counter-intuitive to me, but they're the programmers...so I guess it doesn't.

 

[FishmanGeertz]

Every programmer I know tells me that programming doesn't require math, which seems counter-intuitive to me, but they're the programmers...so I guess it doesn't.

You don't have to be a genius with an IQ of 160+ to be a programmer? I thought computer science was mind-bogglingly complex and requires a staggering intellect to understand.

 

[JaredJames]

You don't have to be a genius with an IQ of 160+ to be a programmer? I thought computer science was mind-bogglingly complex and requires a staggering intellect to understand.

Hell no. Don't know where you got that impression from.

 

[Stephen Tashi]

Hell no. Don't know where you got that impression from.

jared! You're supposed to say "Yes, it does".

 

[Femme_physics]

You don't have to be a genius with an IQ of 160+ to be a programmer? I thought computer science was mind-bogglingly complex and requires a staggering intellect to understand.

That's like saying "you don't have to be a genius with an IQ of 160+ to learn a foreign language"?

Programming is basically telling a computer how to behave using a language it can understand. So, unless you're going to program a fancy calculator, I wouldn't worry so much about math...

 

[mal4mac]

Every programmer I know tells me that programming doesn't require math, which seems counter-intuitive to me, but they're the programmers...so I guess it doesn't.

In physics you write programs to solve differential equations - you definitely need math there! If you program a spreadsheet to work out your tax returns then it involves mathematics, but easy stuff, even easier than basic algebra.

General purpose classes in "programming for beginners" will probably only involve a level of mathematical knowledge equivalent to calculating a tax return - that is, are likely to be OK for the OP. So the OP shouldn't be frightened about tackling a programming class. Basic programming skills are very useful in everyday life (and business) - certainly more useful than any mathematics beyond simple algebra. For instance, anyone can get spreadsheets to calculate tax returns and all sorts if useful things with very basic programming knowledge!

You may find you don't do well in the class, some people just don't get programming. But if you don't try it you will never know. Challenge yourself! And work hard at it... it's one of those things that just "clicks" after long hours of work... then it becomes easy(ish) and fun... and useful...

So for general culture *and* usefulness I think everyone should take a general programming class. At least it will stop people thinking the IT mob have an IQ of 160+. Their egos are large enough already :)

 

[JaredJames]

In physics you write programs to solve differential equations - you definitely need math there! If you program a spreadsheet to work out your tax returns then it involves mathematics, but easy stuff, even easier than basic algebra.

General purpose classes in "programming for beginners" will probably only involve a level of mathematical knowledge equivalent to calculating a tax return - that is, are likely to be OK for the OP. So the OP shouldn't be frightened about tackling a programming class. Basic programming skills are very useful in everyday life (and business) - certainly more useful than any mathematics beyond simple algebra. For instance, anyone can get spreadsheets to calculate tax returns and all sorts if useful things with very basic programming knowledge!

You may find you don't do well in the class, some people just don't get programming. But if you don't try it you will never know. Challenge yourself! And work hard at it... it's one of those things that just "clicks" after long hours of work... then it becomes easy(ish) and fun... and useful...

So for general culture *and* usefulness I think everyone should take a general programming class. At least it will stop people thinking the IT mob have an IQ of 160+. Their egos are large enough already :)

I'd call MATLAB and it's equivalents programming, but excel calculations, really? I think that pushes the boundaries - by those standards, typing into my calculator is programming.

Although, yes, strictly speaking it is. I'm not sure it's considered on the same level as actually programming software. Definitely a knowledge jump involved.

I wouldn't say programming is inherently useful to people in everyday life. For the most part, the things you can do may help with minor tasks but it's not something you'd constantly find a use for.

In physics (and related fields, engineering etc) you certainly would need maths whilst programming. However, the OP is referring heading towards computer sciences - which isn't focussed on math tasks.

 

[FishmanGeertz]

I'd call MATLAB and it's equivalents programming, but excel calculations, really? I think that pushes the boundaries - by those standards, typing into my calculator is programming.

Although, yes, strictly speaking it is. I'm not sure it's considered on the same level as actually programming software. Definitely a knowledge jump involved.

I wouldn't say programming is inherently useful to people in everyday life. For the most part, the things you can do may help with minor tasks but it's not something you'd constantly find a use for.

In physics (and related fields, engineering etc) you certainly would need maths whilst programming. However, the OP is referring heading towards computer sciences - which isn't focussed on math tasks.

An IQ above 140 is considered "genius." Only 2% of the entire world population falls within this range. People with extremely high IQ's usually attribute their intelligence to physics, mathematics, engineering, science, and other "brainy" subjects. I would imagine computer science also falls within the "brainy" category.

 

[JaredJames]

An IQ above 140 is considered "genius." Only 2% of the entire world population falls within this range. People with extremely high IQ's usually attribute their intelligence to physics, mathematics, engineering, science, and other "brainy" subjects. I would imagine computer science also falls within the "brainy" category.

I have an IQ of 156 - it means nothing and you wouldn't think it talking to me. It isn't an accurate reflection of how intelligent you are. It's a number a mensa test has generated and labelled me with.

You don't have to be anything to do with those subjects to have a high IQ. It's quite a misconception you have there.

So far as "Only 2% of the entire world population falls within this range." goes, that's fairly obvious when you consider the education availability around the planet. It's like saying 1 in 100 people are able to swim, which sounds depressingly low until you realize that only 1 in 100 are ever taught (numbers made up).

 

[denks]

As someone who has worked in software development for many many years before returning to study in engineering I can say there is very little, if any, mathematics in general programming. Now having said that, to be a good programmer, or network administrator or anything else, you will need to have very solid logic skills. As mentioned above, stick to IT, not computer science, as comp sci does expect you to do subjects like discrete maths, mathematically proving programs are correct, big O notation (how long an algorithm will take to run - linear, exponential, logarithmic etc). In IT you cover more the "what it does" part rather than the "how it does what it does". If you do more of a business analysis type stream rather than a mathematical analysis type stream you can avoid a lot of the mathy stuff.

And the obvious - and I am surprised it has not been asked - what exactly appeals to you about computer / technology related fields? If it is just that you want to work with technology but do not necessarily want to be hands on then take the path of project management or sales. You will need almost no maths but be paid more than any of the programmers that work with you.

 

[mal4mac]

... excel calculations, really? I think that pushes the boundaries - by those standards, typing into my calculator is programming.

Although, yes, strictly speaking it is...

Well you answered your own question! Just typing a formula into the box at the top is very rudimentary programming, I agree. But Excel does come with VBA, which is a programming language.

I'm not sure it's considered on the same level as actually programming software. Definitely a knowledge jump involved.

True, but that's for a pretty elite group - like top CS graduates from MIT who get hired by Microsoft, Google et.al. There's a lot of programming that goes on outside such elite groups, and there are many jobs for those who scrape a pass in IT from Armpit College - like programming an Excel VBA spreadsheet to do basic admin tasks, or writing simple Javascipt programs to help people fill out online forms, or ... well the possibilities are endless... (Physics graduates can also get these jobs when they realize they can't get a job in physics, or want better wages... )

The kind of programming class you will get doing an IT degree can be kept closer to "Excel spreadsheet" programming, if you find programming isn't your thing. You can take classes in all sorts of other stuff that isn't too mathematical (or just too hard!) For instance, databases, operating systems, AI, HCI, and on... In summary you can do an IT degree without being a whiz at mathematics *or* programming...

 

[denks]

AI isn't mathematical? News to me! As an example, how will you implement a neural net without maths? Or understand a Baysian network without an understanding in statistics? Or be able to work through predicate logic without being able to grasp discrete maths? I think that's a terrible example for a non-mathematical branch of CS! If you can't grasp binary and will struggle working with hash tables then OS coding is not for you, same goes with coding databases if your set theory is off. Not trying to be picky but besides HCI I think that was a good list of what NOT to do if your maths is off :)

And you don't need to be a top grad from a top school to get a good job in IT - you just have to be prepared to put more work in initially if you are not.

 

[Jaynte]

You don't need math if you just implement software or hardware from an already
finished design. The you just need to know the program language. But if you want
do design your own system, algorithms in software or hardware I would recommend some
math to understand what is behind what you're doing.

 

[JaredJames]

You don't need math if you just implement software or hardware from an already
finished design. The you just need to know the program language. But if you want
do design your own system, algorithms in software or hardware I would recommend some
math to understand what is behind what you're doing.

1. It's harder to go through someone else's software than your own.

2. The math doesn't help you understand anything. Yes, if there's something math based it could help you follow it, but for the most part it's logic and knowing the language.

 

[JaredJames]

Well you answered your own question! Just typing a formula into the box at the top is very rudimentary programming, I agree. But Excel does come with VBA, which is a programming language.

VBA =/= calculations. Big difference, again in knowledge level required.

I wasn't trying to say 'calculators' aren't programming, more that it isn't considered programming.

It's largely semantics at this point, but if someone put "programmer" on their CV and you asked what they could do, a response such as "well, I can use a calcualtor" would get a laugh a long time before it received shock and awe at how great you are!

 

[FishmanGeertz]

As someone who has worked in software development for many many years before returning to study in engineering I can say there is very little, if any, mathematics in general programming. Now having said that, to be a good programmer, or network administrator or anything else, you will need to have very solid logic skills. As mentioned above, stick to IT, not computer science, as comp sci does expect you to do subjects like discrete maths, mathematically proving programs are correct, big O notation (how long an algorithm will take to run - linear, exponential, logarithmic etc). In IT you cover more the "what it does" part rather than the "how it does what it does". If you do more of a business analysis type stream rather than a mathematical analysis type stream you can avoid a lot of the mathy stuff.

And the obvious - and I am surprised it has not been asked - what exactly appeals to you about computer / technology related fields? If it is just that you want to work with technology but do not necessarily want to be hands on then take the path of project management or sales. You will need almost no maths but be paid more than any of the programmers that work with you.

What about an computer technicians and the A+ certification program? These people can work in the IT departments of offices and I doubt it involves any programming or CS. You just have to know a lot about computer hardware, software, and other techy stuff. Which I already know very much about -- I built a monster gaming rig and I hand picked each component entirely by myself.

It cost almost $3,000 with the $300 monitor + tax. But fortunately, I have a lot of well-invested old money my grandfather left my family and I.

If I had a few more hundred dollars I would have gotten Two GTX 580's and a larger power supply, instead of Two Radeon HD 5870's.

 

[JaredJames]

What about an computer technicians and the A+ certification program? These people can work in the IT departments of offices and I doubt it involves any programming or CS. You just have to know a lot about computer hardware, software, and other techy stuff.

Working in an IT department isn't the same as programming, which isn't the same as working in web development - you choose a specific area and "hardware, software and other techy stuff" isn't going to cut it.

There are a whole host of fields out there for you to choose from. Unless you are specifically going for something that involves mathematical work you aren't going to encounter it.

Which I already know very much about -- I built a monster gaming rig and I hand picked each component entirely by myself.

It cost almost $3,000 with the $300 monitor + tax. But fortunately, I have a lot of well-invested old money my grandfather left my family and I.

If I had a few more hundred dollars I would have gotten Two GTX 580's and a larger power supply, instead of Two Radeon HD 5870's.

Wow, you really like to plug your computer don't you. Now we're onto money.

Building a computer means nothing these days. They've standardised and simplified things to the point pretty much anyone who can read could handle it.

I'd point out that monster gaming rig or complete pile of rubbish, assuming you chose all the components yourself it's always "hand picked".

 

[denks]

What about an computer technicians and the A+ certification program? These people can work in the IT departments of offices and I doubt it involves any programming or CS. You just have to know a lot about computer hardware, software, and other techy stuff. Which I already know very much about -- I built a monster gaming rig and I hand picked each component entirely by myself.

It cost almost $3,000 with the $300 monitor + tax. But fortunately, I have a lot of well-invested old money my grandfather left my family and I.

If I had a few more hundred dollars I would have gotten Two GTX 580's and a larger power supply, instead of Two Radeon HD 5870's.

From this I am guessing you like working with computers so the sales / PM type roles may not be what you are looking for. If that is the case look at getting into something like sysadmin. It will involve very little maths and will be the most hands-on in re replacing parts. Or get a job with a company of the likes of Dell as a technician who goes out and does the part testing / replacement work. If you like hands-on work with technology also consider doing technician work for places that sell high-tech equipment and machinery eg. medical equipment, aerospace and the such. If you want to do further study do IT as suggested rather than comp sci.

 

[mal4mac]

AI isn't mathematical? News to me! As an example, how will you implement a neural net without maths? Or understand a Baysian network without an understanding in statistics? Or be able to work through predicate logic without being able to grasp discrete maths? I think that's a terrible example for a non-mathematical branch of CS! If you can't grasp binary and will struggle working with hash tables then OS coding is not for you, same goes with coding databases if your set theory is off. Not trying to be picky but besides HCI I think that was a good list of what NOT to do if your maths is off :)

And you don't need to be a top grad from a top school to get a good job in IT - you just have to be prepared to put more work in initially if you are not.

You can take university courses in AI that don't demand much knowledge of mathematics. For example:

http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/course/m366.htm

Binary arithmetic and the basics of set theory are at about the same level as simple algebra.

 

[FishmanGeertz]

You can take university courses in AI that don't demand much knowledge of mathematics. For example:

http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/course/m366.htm

Binary arithmetic and the basics of set theory are at about the same level as simple algebra.

You don't have to have genius-level intellect to understand computer science? Famous computer moguls like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Ballmer, electronic engineer Seymour Cray, facebooks Mark Zuckerberg, all have IQ's above the "genius" 140 mark.

I would imagine a professional career in computer science or electronic engineering does require a fair deal of intellect.

Do you think a "slow" kid with an IQ of 75-80 could write and understand computer code?

 

[JaredJames]

You don't have to have genius-level intellect to understand computer science? Famous computer moguls like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Ballmer, electronic engineer Seymour Cray, facebooks Mark Zuckerberg, all have IQ's above the "genius" 140 mark.

You do not have to be a genius. Period. Can we please stop this non-sense.

I really would like to know where you get the idea that every computer science person out there is some genius.

Of course some are genius level, but that doesn't mean they all are. You have used a very flawed and common piece of logic: There are 'genius' level computer programmers therefore all computer programmers are genius level.

I would imagine a professional career in computer science or electronic engineering does require a fair deal of intellect.

Don't confuse computer science with electronic engineering - the latter does require a lot of maths.

Do you think a "slow" kid with an IQ of 75-80 could write and understand computer code?

Can a 'slow' kid know more than one language? It's no different.

As long as you can understand the basic logic and outlay of programming (computer science in the UK involves some programming) and can learn the insides of a computer you're pretty much on your way. Obviously there's quite a bit more to it, but you seem to want us to tell you only genius level people can do it.

Oh, and for the record, Mark Zuckerberg pretty much stole the idea and was sued (but settled out of court).

 

[FishmanGeertz]

You do not have to be a genius. Period. Can we please stop this non-sense.

I really would like to know where you get the idea that every computer science person out there is some genius.

Of course some are genius level, but that doesn't mean they all are. You have used a very flawed and common piece of logic: There are 'genius' level computer programmers therefore all computer programmers are genius level.


Don't confuse computer science with electronic engineering - the latter does require a lot of maths.


Can a 'slow' kid know more than one language? It's no different.

As long as you can understand the basic logic and outlay of programming (computer science in the UK involves some programming) and can learn the insides of a computer you're pretty much on your way. Obviously there's quite a bit more to it, but you seem to want us to tell you only genius level people can do it.

Oh, and for the record, Mark Zuckerberg pretty much stole the idea and was sued (but settled out of court).

Whats Mark Zuckerberg's IQ?

 

[denks]

You do not have to be a genius. Period. Can we please stop this non-sense.

I think this needs some more repeating. What particular aspects require this IQ that are incomprehensible to mere mortals? I also find it amusing that true computer science geniuses like Turing and Wozniak are left off that list while businessmen like Ballmer were included as computer science geniuses (I'm sure he is a very intelligent man, however he has not exactly contributed masses of genius code at MS considering he was hired as a business manager).

 

[mal4mac]

You don't have to have genius-level intellect to understand computer science? Famous computer moguls like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Ballmer, electronic engineer Seymour Cray, facebooks Mark Zuckerberg, all have IQ's above the "genius" 140 mark.

Do you think a "slow" kid with an IQ of 75-80 could write and understand computer code?

We're talking about you here Fishman! Let's leave the slow kid out of it for the moment. Let's assume your Maths IQ is average, if you can do any algebra it's probably at least that. You could certainly do a basic programming class and IT degree, and find a fun job somewhere in the computer industry. You might not be able to do genius level work like the people you mention, but you can easily become an Apple sales person, a facebook editor, or a VBA hacker.

 

[JaredJames]

Whats Mark Zuckerberg's IQ?

Irrelevant, that's what it is.

You are taking meaningless numbers that have nothing to do with ability in the subject and using them to falsely assert all computer sciences people are genius level.

Complete non-sense.

Let me give my opinion of this thread for a second, it's harsh but I think someone needs to say it.
You've come in asking about this subject thinking you need to be a genius to do it. You have been corrected by everyone here but don't listen. This leads me to believe you are looking at taking the course but want us to tell you you need to be a genius to do it - ego boost? Bragging rights? Who knows. If this is right, I request the thread locked as we're past the point of being productive and the OP has been answered.

Frankly, I'm done with this thread. I will gladly help anyone who comes to learn, but I have no interest in having someone dictate complete rubbish to me.

Fishman, do you realize that the people you listed are a minority (tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny minority) and don't serve as an accurate representation of IQ / intelligence of the field.

As an indication, here's something for you to look at: http://motls.blogspot.com/2006/03/iq-in-different-fields.html

Average IQ in Computer Science: 128

Don't take it too seriously, like I said it means nothing. Personal ability is what matters. Don't take IQ numbers like they're some god like ability check.

Whilst looking for the above, I found a lovely quote on another forum:

IQ tests aren't designed with such choices in mind and the sub-scores cannot really be used to indicate which area of study would be suited to you. If you're above average or even slightly below you have the tools needed to succeed in a third level course. At the end of the day, IQ is really the power of your engine and once you have established that it works whatever course you do is really a matter of personal taste- don't read too much into the results.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67990458