Are These Statements About Preimages Correct and Complete?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the correctness and completeness of several statements regarding preimages in the context of set theory and functions. Participants examine specific properties of preimages, including their behavior under unions, intersections, complements, and set differences.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants affirm the statement $f^{-1}(A\cup B)=f^{-1}(A)\cup f^{-1}(B)$ and provide a proof for it.
  • Others support the claim that $f^{-1}(\overline{A})=\overline{f^{-1}(A)}$ and offer reasoning to justify it.
  • There is agreement on the statement $f^{-1}(A\setminus B)=f^{-1}(A)\setminus f^{-1}(B)$, with participants providing logical steps to demonstrate its validity.
  • Some participants discuss the statement $A\cap B=\emptyset \Rightarrow f^{-1}(A)\cap f^{-1}(B)=\emptyset$, with one participant providing a proof and others expressing understanding of the reasoning.
  • There is contention regarding the statement $A\subseteq B \Rightarrow f^{-1}(B)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$, with some participants questioning its validity and providing counterexamples, particularly when $A$ is empty.
  • Participants explore the implications of the statements under specific conditions, such as when sets are equal or empty.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the validity of the first four statements regarding preimages, but there is disagreement on the fifth statement, with some arguing it does not hold in all cases. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the conditions under which the fifth statement may or may not be true.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the implications of certain statements and the necessity of clarifying language used in mathematical expressions. There are unresolved questions about the generality of the fifth statement and its validity under specific conditions.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

Let $f:M\rightarrow N$, $A,B\subset N$. I want to check if the following statements about the preimages are correct:
  1. $f^{-1}(A\cup B)=f^{-1}(A)\cup f^{-1}(B)$
  2. $f^{-1}(\overline{A})=\overline{f^{-1}(A)}$
  3. $f^{-1}(A\setminus B)=f^{-1}(A)\setminus f^{-1}(B)$
  4. $A\cap B=\emptyset \Rightarrow f^{-1}(A)\cap f^{-1}(B)=\emptyset$
  5. $A\subseteq B \Rightarrow f^{-1}(B)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$
I have done the following:

  1. Let $x\in f^{-1}(A\cup B)$. Then it follows that $f(x)\in A\cup B$. This means that either $f(x)\in A$ or $f(x)\in B$, so $x\in f^{-1}(A)$ or $x\in f^{-1}(B)$. It follows that $x\in f^{-1}(A)\cup f^{-1}(B)$.

    We have shown that $\displaystyle{f^{-1}(A\cup B)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)\cup f^{-1}(B)}$. Let $x\in f^{-1}(A)\cup f^{-1}(B)$. Then we either have that $x\in f^{-1}(A)$ or $x\in f^{-1}(B)$, so either $f(x)\in A$ or $f(x)\in B$. This means that $f(x)\in A\cup B$. It follows that $x\in f^{-1}(A\cup B)$.

    We have shown that $\displaystyle{f^{-1}(A)\cup f^{-1}(B) \subseteq f^{-1}(A\cup B)}$. From these two inclusions it follows that $\displaystyle{f^{-1}(A\cup B)=f^{-1}(A)\cup f^{-1}(B)}$.

    $$$$
  2. $$x\in f^{-1}(\overline{A}) \iff f(x) \in \overline{A} \iff f(x) \notin A \iff x\notin f^{-1}(A) \iff x\in \overline{f^{-1}(A)}$$
    Therefore, we get that $f^{-1}(\overline{A})=\overline{f^{-1}(A)}$.

    $$$$
  3. $$x\in f^{-1}(A\setminus B) \iff f(x)\in A\setminus B \iff f(x) \in A \text{ AND } f(x) \notin B \iff x\in f^{-1}(A) \text{ AND } x\notin f^{-1}(B) \\ \iff x\in f^{-1}(A)\setminus f^{-1}(B)$$
    Therefore, we get that $f^{-1}(A\setminus B)=f^{-1}(A)\setminus f^{-1}(B)$.

    $$$$
  4. We suppose that $f^{-1}(A)\cap f^{-1}(B)\neq\emptyset$. That means that $\exists x\in f^{-1}(A)\cap f^{-1}(B)$. That means that $x\in f^{-1}(A)$ AND $x\in f^{-1}(B)$. That implies that $f(x)\in A$ AND $f(x)\in B$, and so $f(x)\in A\cap B$. We get a contradiction since $A\cap B=\emptyset$.
    So, that what we supposed at the beginning was wrong, i.e., $f^{-1}(A)\cap f^{-1}(B)\neq\emptyset$ is not correct. So, it must be $f^{-1}(A)\cap f^{-1}(B)=\emptyset$.
Is everything correct and are the proofs complete? Or could I improve something?

Could you give me a hint about the last statement?

(Wondering)
 
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mathmari said:
Could you give me a hint about the last statement?
(Wondering)
The empty set is a subset of any other set.

I'm sorry that I do not have the time to check your other work, but this is at least a hint about the last statement.
 
Krylov said:
The empty set is a subset of any other set.
mathmari said:
5. $A\subseteq B \Rightarrow f^{-1}(B)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$
So do you mean to take $A=\emptyset$ ? (Wondering)
 
mathmari said:
So do you mean to take $A=\emptyset$ ? (Wondering)
Yes, and $B = N$.
What do you think about the veracity of statement #5?
 
Hey mathmari! (Smile)

You wrote: '$f(x)∈A∪B$. This means that either $f(x)∈A$ or $f(x)∈B$.'

Using 'either ... or ...' means that they cannot both be true, but that's not the case is it?
Shouldn't it be: '$f(x)∈A∪B$. This means that $f(x)∈A$ or $f(x)∈B$.'? (Wondering)
I think all occurrences of 'either' should be removed.

Other than that I think everything is correct! (Nod)
 
Krylov said:
Yes, and $B = N$.
What do you think about the veracity of statement #5?

So, for $A=\emptyset$ and $B=N$ we have that $\emptyset \subseteq N$.
Let $x\in f^{-1}(N)$ then we have that $f(x)\in N$.
It cannot hold that $f(x)\in \emptyset$ and so it cannot hold that $x\in f^{-1}(\emptyset)$.
Therefore, we have that $f^{-1}(N)\nsubseteq f^{-1}(\emptyset)$.
And so generally the implication $A\subseteq B \Rightarrow f^{-1}(B)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$ does not hold.

Is this correct? (Wondering)
I like Serena said:
You wrote: '$f(x)∈A∪B$. This means that either $f(x)∈A$ or $f(x)∈B$.'
Using 'either ... or ...' means that they cannot both be true, but that's not the case is it?
Shouldn't it be: '$f(x)∈A∪B$. This means that $f(x)∈A$ or $f(x)∈B$.'? (Wondering)
I think all occurrences of 'either' should be removed.
Other than that I think everything is correct! (Nod)

Ah ok! (Smile)

So, by '$f(x)∈A∪B$. This means that $f(x)∈A$ or $f(x)∈B$.' it is meant that both can be true, isn't it? Or do we have to mention it? (Wondering)
 
mathmari said:
Is this correct?

So, by '$f(x)∈A∪B$. This means that $f(x)∈A$ or $f(x)∈B$.' it is meant that both can be true, isn't it? Or do we have to mention it?

Yep. All correct.
And there is no need to mention that both can be true - that is implied in the word 'or'.
If we want to be explicit about it, we can use 'and/or'. (Mmm)
 
I like Serena said:
Yep. All correct.
And there is no need to mention that both can be true - that is implied in the word 'or'.
If we want to be explicit about it, we can use 'and/or'. (Mmm)

Great! (Mmm)

Is the implication $A\subseteq B \Rightarrow f^{-1}(B)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$ true when a specific condition holds or is this never true? (Wondering)
 
mathmari said:
Is the implication $A\subseteq B \Rightarrow f^{-1}(B)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$ true when a specific condition holds or is this never true? (Wondering)

Can we find an example that it's true?
What happens if $A$ and $B$ are $\varnothing$, equal to each other, or $N$? (Wondering)
 
  • #10
I like Serena said:
Can we find an example that it's true?
What happens if $A$ and $B$ are $\varnothing$, equal to each other, or $N$? (Wondering)

Ah if $A=B$ we have that $A\subseteq B=A$ and that $f^{-1}(B)=f^{-1}(A)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$. So, when the sets are equal to each other the implication is true, right? (Wondering)
 
  • #11
mathmari said:
Ah if $A=B$ we have that $A\subseteq B=A$ and that $f^{-1}(B)=f^{-1}(A)\subseteq f^{-1}(A)$. So, when the sets are equal to each other the implication is true, right?

Yep. (Nod)
 
  • #12
Thank you very much! (Mmm)
 

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