Are We Capable of Creating True Artificial Intelligence?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of artificial intelligence and the potential for machines to achieve self-awareness. Participants explore the implications of advanced computing power, the Turing test, and the definitions of self-awareness and consciousness in both humans and machines. The scope includes theoretical considerations, philosophical inquiries, and speculative future scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that if a computer were to exceed human brain capabilities, it would be challenging to determine its self-awareness without accessing its memory.
  • Others reference the Turing test and question its relevance, arguing that future AI may not aim to match human intelligence but rather to surpass it in different ways.
  • A participant proposes a method for training a neural network to generate grammatically correct and sensible responses, speculating on the future of human-machine interactions.
  • There is a call for a clear definition of self-awareness, as previous discussions have led to confusion and lengthy debates on the topic.
  • Some argue that computers exhibit a form of self-awareness by monitoring their own operations, but question whether this constitutes true self-awareness.
  • Participants express uncertainty about the necessary conditions for consciousness, suggesting that the understanding of self-awareness is still limited.
  • There is a discussion about the role of pain in defining self-awareness, with some questioning whether only biological entities can be conscious.
  • Others challenge the notion that awareness must include subjective experience, suggesting that software can exhibit problem awareness without consciousness.
  • The idea of varying levels of self-awareness is introduced, indicating that computers may possess a form of awareness that is not fully developed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definitions of self-awareness and consciousness, with multiple competing views and ongoing debates about the implications of these concepts for artificial intelligence.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include the lack of a clear definition of self-awareness, the dependence on subjective interpretations, and unresolved questions about the conditions necessary for consciousness in both biological and artificial systems.

  • #31


Originally posted by Merlin
That's an interesting concept. This self awareness thing is so difficult to define! My definition of sentient or self aware is knowing that you are alive and conscious, and knowing that you are going to die. Mortality is such a motivater! But as I posted earlier the only way to know if someone or thing is truly self aware (or faking it) is to be that sentient being[/color]...Merlin[/color]

All animals are aware and conscious, some maybe self aware and know they are going to die. Thats why they hunt for food.
Humans are self aware, that death, in the physical objective reality is not final.

There is evidence. Your new on the post.
 
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  • #32
Originally posted by Bernardo
OK, all humans are self-aware, they know they exsist eat, breath and flip channels. But does mortality play as big a role?

There are people that believe they will never physically die. Are they less self-aware?

All humans are born, live and die.
Humans are aware to different degrees.
Self awareness in humans who think they will not die, is do to insanity.

Or those who know they are mortal but just live recklessly anyway, minimizing this mortality - are they trying to avoid self-awarness? Do we become more self aware with age - as we approach our end?

All humans are mortal and self aware.
Some mortals live recklessly.
The reckless humans, that are not so self aware, die quick.


I think a computer that has been programmed as our intellectual equal and given applications to examine itself daily is more self aware that a college co-ed on a binge.

Computers and college co-eds on a binge are self aware.
Computers have been programmed as our intellectual equal to a college co-ed on a binge.
Both computers and college co-eds on a binge have no self awareness.
 
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  • #33
Originally posted by Jeebus

First let us think about what defines self-awareness.

http://users.erols.com/wcri/CONSCIOUSNESS.html

The most unique thing about humans is, being conscious of our consciousness, outside of our biological systems, and be aware of it.

Humans have astral dreams while conscious and are aware of it.
There is human awareness during astral dreams.
Human consciousness is awareness of it.

Whats the butter capital of Wisconsin? Clue fill in the letters.
R========G
 
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  • #34
Originally posted by Rader
http://users.erols.com/wcri/CONSCIOUSNESS.html

The most unique thing about humans is, being conscious of our consciousness, outside of our biological systems, and be aware of it.

Humans have astral dreams while conscious and are aware of it.
There is human awareness during astral dreams.
Human consciousness is awareness of it.

Whats the butter capital of Wisconsin? Clue fill in the letters.
R========G


I wasn't arguing that human consciousness wasn't aware of it. I believe it is conscious throughout. Thus brain activity imagines while the physical capability of awareness works/shows during astral dreams.

Well the butter capital of Wisconsin has to be Reedsburg. By the way you have one extra equals sign in there. I'm being aware, but not self-aware.
 
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  • #35
Originally posted by Jeebus
I wasn't arguing that human consciousness wasn't aware of it. I believe it is conscious throughout. Thus brain activity imagines while the physical capability of awareness works/shows during astral dreams.

Wow you have helped me with a original thought. There are people who can have a astral trip whenever they wish to conjure it. When they observe themselves, do they observe there astral body exactly the same as there physical body? If yes, Reasoning > if a equal device could be put on the physical body, then the astral body would also have it. Then two measurements could be taken independently to measure brain activity, heart beat, respiration. Upon returning to the physical body a analysis of the data could be determined. If there was a difference and there should be, as a fixed state is quite different from a mobile state. Then we could conclude that a human is both physical and spiritual and that consciousness does not only reside in the physical body.

Well the butter capital of Wisconsin has to be Reedsburg. By the way you have one extra equals sign in there. I'm being aware, but not self-aware.

Yes correct answer, you would most likely have to be from Wisconsin to know that answer. Yes again an extra equal sign to check your awarenss. Were you self aware of a possible trick?
 
  • #36
I am aware that I am aware

Deeper an deeper we go. Are animals self aware? no, they eat because they are hungry. Was Neanderthal self aware. Yes, they buried their dead, and provided implements for use in the afterlife. there MAY be levels of self awareness. If astral projection could be quantified i would like to know if both the unastral body as well as the astral body was conscious and self aware...[/color] Merlin
 
  • #37
arcilects.

http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/artilectwar2.html

Let me be more specific. As a professional brain building researcher and former theoretical physicist, I am in a position to see more clearly than most, the potential of 21st century technologies to generate "massively intelligent" machines. By "massively intelligent" I mean the creation of artificial brains which may end up being smarter than human brains by not just a factor of two or even ten times, but by a factor of trillions of trillions of trillions of times, i.e. truly godlike. Since such gargantuan numbers may sound more science fiction like to you than any possible future science, the next chapter of this book will explain to you the basic principles of those 21st century technologies that I believe will allow humanity, if it chooses, to build these godlike machines. I will try to persuade you that it is not science fiction, and that strong reasons exist to compel humanity to believe in these astronomically large numbers. I will present these technologies in as simple and as clear a way as I can, so that you do not need to be a "rocket scientist" (as the Americans say, i.e. someone very smart) to understand them. The basic ideas can be understood by almost anyone who is prepared to give their study a little effort.


would you be a cosmist or a terran (or switzerland)? maybe there should be a poll about this.
 
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  • #38
I have a quote practically memorized from Speed Levitch, a New York City tour guide who guides The Cruise a character in Linklater's Waking Life - an original, artistic, documentary that depicts New York City on film, and the people and ways of life contained within of lucid dreaming. I think hypnagogue knows this very well; also.

Here's the quote:
Speed: On this bridge, Lorca warns: Life is not a dream, beware, and beware, and beware. And so many think because then happened, now isn't. But didn't I mention? the ongoing *WOW* is happening right *NOW*. We are all co-authors of this dancing exuberance, for even our inabilities are having a roast. We are the authors of ourselves, co-authoring a gigantic Dostoevsky novel staring clowns. This entire thing we're involved with called the world is an opportunity to exhibit how exciting alienation can be. Life is a matter of a miracle that is collected over time by moments flabbergasted to be in each others' presence. The world is an exam, to see if we can rise into the direct experiences. Our eyesight is here as a test, to see if we can see beyond it. Matter is here as a test for our curiosity. Doubt is here as an exam for our vitality. Thomas Mann wrote that he would rather participate in life than write a hundred stories. Giacometti was once run down by a car, and he recalled falling into a lucid faint - a sudden exhiliration as he realized at last, something was happening to him. An assumption developed that you cannot understand life and live life simultaneously. I do not agree entirely, which is to say, I do not exactly disagree. I would say that life understood is life lived. But, the paradoxes bug me, and I can learn to love and make love to the paradoxes that bug me, and on really romantic evenings of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. Before you drift off, don't forget, which is to say remember, because remembering is so much more a psychotic activity than forgeting: Lorca, in that same poem, said that the Iguana will bite those who do not dream, and as one realizes that one is a dream figure in another person's dream...that is self-awareness!


He states that life does not seem like a dream because we are so fully "aware" of everything that is going on around us...However, what we fail to realize is that we're truly not aware of anything. He who thinks himself wise, is truly a fool. Life is a dream, a dream in which we can never fully understand ourselves until we realize that we are dreaming [at least this is what I got from it]. I believe this whole film is, essentially, about relating our lives to our dreams: "The trick is to combine your waking, rational abilities with the infinite possibilities of your dreams." "You're dreaming, but you're awake. You have so many options, and that's what life is about."
 
  • #39


Originally posted by Merlin
Deeper an deeper we go. Are animals self aware? no, they eat because they are hungry. Was Neanderthal self aware. Yes, they buried their dead, and provided implements for use in the afterlife. there MAY be levels of self awareness. If astral projection could be quantified i would like to know if both the unastral body as well as the astral body was conscious and self aware...[/color] Merlin

There are indications that dolphins and apes may be self aware, to some extent. Most animals below humans are aware only. The Neanderthal Man had to have been as his cranial capacity was superior to us. Go read this post and you can get a lot of feedback.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5615&perpage=12&pagenumber=1
 
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  • #40
Originally posted by Jeebus
"You're dreaming, but you're awake. You have so many options, and that's what life is about."

Do you want to exprience what you wrote. Stare at an object, not just look, for a long period, looking upon it and contemplating it.
The stangest feeling comes upon you like you are awake but dreaming inside the big dream.
 
  • #41
Originally posted by Rader
... dreaming inside the big dream.
Big Dream ... sounds like an (US) Indian expression.?. I haven't google on this yet.
 
  • #42
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
arcilects.

http://www.cs.usu.edu/~degaris/artilectwar2.html

You always find the most interesting sites, or do they find you?
 
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  • #43
Originally posted by pelastration
Big Dream ... sounds like an (US) Indian expression.?. I haven't google on this yet.

The Big Dream is a coined aborigine expression. I guess they are the Indians of Australia.
 
  • #44
The aboriginals call it 'the dream time'

I'd consider something to be aware if they could 'feel' things, like pain for instance. That's how I know myself to be aware - I feel things, but my response (the programmed part) doesn't necessarily correspond to what I feel. I guess the paradox is that what I'm writing now could be a programmed response. Still, I believe the ability to feel things as a good indicator of an aware being. How you can tell if something is 'feeling' or responding in a programmed way is a real dilemna.
 
  • #45
if i started inputting your responses into a chatbot, created an account with a new name, and posted its replies, i wonder how many people would even suspect it was a machine replying...
 
  • #46
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
if i started inputting your responses into a chatbot, created an account with a new name, and posted its replies, i wonder how many people would even suspect it was a machine replying...

You brought up an interesting point. Do you classify the people you post to with dualistic stamps. First male or female, then talk or battle, on my wave lenth or off my wavelengh. Post ghosters become real to the point where, i feel emotions from the words they have written. My perception changes on each post to them and also it can be felt, there emotional changes in a single post. Do you know what i mean?
 
  • #47
yeah, i do.

well, like i said, I'm such a bot.

seriously though, i wonder what it'd be like to grow up as a bot. and maybe eventually become an arcilect with intelligence trillions of times more than human. then cybersex would be tantamount to real sex. hmm...
 
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  • #48
Originally posted by steersman
The aboriginals call it 'the dream time'

I'd consider something to be aware if they could 'feel' things, like pain for instance. That's how I know myself to be aware - I feel things, but my response (the programmed part) doesn't necessarily correspond to what I feel. I guess the paradox is that what I'm writing now could be a programmed response. Still, I believe the ability to feel things as a good indicator of an aware being. How you can tell if something is 'feeling' or responding in a programmed way is a real dilemna.

If you were a machine i would not feel emotional links to your posts, unless of course you were a self aware machine. Do you feel emotions from the words a post ghoster sends you?
 
  • #49
well the way current technology works as far as i know is that all responses are actually basically all canned and set off by triggers, prewritten and so the final output is just a modification of something already written. so perhaps any emotion or sense of self-awareness is not at all coming from the machine but from the author of the words in combination with the skill of the programmer.

on the other hand, when you get emotional vibes from a machine, maybe that's because it has emotions.

interesting how that might apply to us as humans if you re-read that but substitute God for "the author" and "the programmer" and human for "machine."
 
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  • #50
reply to the captain

I am interested in AI. The "evolution" of computer power is increasing in geometric progression. However, we would be an incredibly stupid race not to build fail safes into this "massive information systems"or MIS. I suspect that we are that incredibly stupid race! The next world leader will use a MIS to help with world domination. And, we will be willing victims, using a global monetary system and ID. As I've posted before, a computer in Belgium, nick named "the beast "already has the power. In nano seconds it can process all individual credit card/electronic money transactions on earth. Oh, and this is using only a fraction of its system...a computer or network of computers like the beast, along with a human (cyborg or genetically enhanced or...)? will rule Earth ... briefly ...[/color] Merlin[/color]
 
  • #51


Originally posted by Merlin
I am interested in AI. The "evolution" of computer power is increasing in geometric progression. However, we would be an incredibly stupid race not to build fail safes into this "massive information systems"or MIS. I suspect that we are that incredibly stupid race! The next world leader will use a MIS to help with world domination. And, we will be willing victims, using a global monetary system and ID. As I've posted before, a computer in Belgium, nick named "the beast "already has the power. In nano seconds it can process all individual credit card/electronic money transactions on earth. Oh, and this is using only a fraction of its system...a computer or network of computers like the beast, along with a human (cyborg or genetically enhanced or...)? will rule Earth ... briefly ...[/color] Merlin[/color]

Not if the terminator becomes president.
 
  • #52


Originally posted by Merlin
I am interested in AI.
... As I've posted before, a computer in Belgium, nick named "the beast "already has the power.
Interested professionally?
The Beast in Belgium ... ? I have nothing to do with it! ;-)
 
  • #53
suppose it is possible, granted in the distant future, for a computer to be self aware.

suppose also that the machines will still have an if/then structure, albeit most likely a very complicated network of conditionals, or at least still be using some form of mathematical reasoning in its program.

what *part* of that machine would be the *source* of the self awareness? is it the cpu, the hard drive, the memory, the program it's running, the "sensory" data it's recieving?

or *maybe* it's the logic itself that is self aware and *that* is the source of self awareness. a SAS, a self aware structure:

http://www.physicsresource.com/showproduct.php?product=37&sort=1&cat=2&page=1
 
  • #54
Originally posted by phoenixthoth
suppose it is possible, granted in the distant future, for a computer to be self aware ... what *part* of that machine would be the *source* of the self awareness? is it the cpu, the hard drive, the memory, the program it's running, the "sensory" data it's recieving?

or *maybe* it's the logic itself that is self aware and *that* is the source of self awareness. a SAS, a self aware structure:
Self-awareness contains intrinsic the notion 'overview'.

Thus it must be a superior netwerk + interpretation system (over lower parallel sub-computers and sensors) that can self-organize, change focus and priorities on outer and self-produced information, energy-guildence, regulate proper subsystems, etc. , and determine proper goals and means in action and in future.
 
  • #55
suppose it is possible, granted in the distant future, for a computer to be self aware.
What makes the differece between carbon based and silcon based entities?

Would not the level of the complexity of assembly of the unit not dictate what the level of self awarenss was. Would not the level of self awarenss then, be the link between, and or result of, its physical construct and the V vector or wave funtion collapse.
In humans, its the brain and the V vector that makes us the level of self aware that we are.. Would not then all things have a physical construct, linked to the V vector which established the level of awareness. Would not then the computer have a physical construct that linked it to the V vector to produce self awareness.
 
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