Audit orgo for kicks or stick with my physics?

[MissSilvy]

I've always been semi-curious about organic chemistry (the fact that it's mostly all memorization notwithstanding) and I may have a chance this semester, since my physics classes are bottle-necked and I have to take two specific courses before I can access any more.

Two things are holding me back:

I'd also like to take a sequence of mechanical engineering classes to keep my options a bit more open after graduation. Upon inspection of the class syllabuses, it seems like 90% of it was covered in my classical mechanics class but I suppose the engineering classes would be more specialized cases and application focused. I don't want to box myself in during the next two years to go to grad school or bust so I was hoping that statics, dynamics, and a class in fluid mechanics would be instructive.

The organic chemistry class is overwhelmingly a weed-out class for sad pre-med types. They recently made the format online-only with an optional weekly problem session, making it unnecessarily laborious. I could audit and avoid grades altogether; all I want is the knowledge really. I could also try to self-study but I have not gotten the hang of teaching science to myself without a class for guidance so I'm not sure how well that will work out.

I didn't mean for this to become such a long monologue, but it's going to be a serious investment of time either way. I am rather discouraged that I have not managed to find a research position with a professor OR an REU yet (I have rec letters and applications in progress and it's not that my grades are bad or I'm stupid, my physics education is simply progressing slowly). Either I'd invest more time into physics or try to broaden my scientific knowledge a bit. Either way, I'd like to learn orgo either now or in the future but it's a class that I'm not sure how difficult it really is and how much is typical, lazy college-kid whining and bad study habits. I can count on PF to be brutally honest so I appreciate any input. Happy new year!

 

[DDTea]

I have a special place in my heart for O. Chem and I'm almost offended that you say it's all memorization! Only pre-meds say that, and when tutoring them, I often have to un-teach them that terrible notion before they can begin to understand what's going on. :P

That said, organic chemistry is based more in physical chemistry than a lot of people are comfortable with. However, since you're studying physics, I'm going to assume you've taken some thermodynamics. It may be a case of simply adapting your knowledge to chemical thermodynamics. Also, chemical kinetics is important. Definitely take the class and then, if you can get into it, try a course in physical organic chemistry. You'll see exactly what I mean!

I never thought O. Chem was difficult, and I took a version of the course tailored for Chemistry majors (i.e., we covered twice the material at twice the depth as the pre-meds). However, if you're interested in reconciling physics, engineering, and chemistry, you may want to consider some materials science courses.

 

[General_Sax]

O.Chem 1 @ my school was basically the first third of general chemistry 1 + stereochemistry + reactions/synthesis. It is difficult at times, but like any course all one really needs to do is practice. I'm convinced that a person of relatively average intelligence dedicates themselves to a reasonable degree then they're almost guaranteed a B+ in O.Chem... I guess that's like any course I've taken though.

Some of it was really cool though; however, I think the coolest type of chemistry would be bio-chem. I haven't taken that course though, but the cooler parts of O.chem seemed to pertain to bio-chem.

 

[chiro]

I'm curious MissSilvy don't you need to take a year long intro sequence in chemistry to take organic or do you have credits? I was thinking the same thing with engineering classes. Over here you can only do engineering classes if you're enrolled in an engineering degree and you can't take them if you're doing a science degree.

However if the above doesn't apply and you're interested I'd say take it. You're already doing physics so I think you have the aptitude for it.

Also university should (in my opinion) be all about satisfying curiosity by taking things you think will interest you. One course can change your whole direction for the future.

I will say though sometimes when you have the flexibility of choosing an elective in the general schedule and not the specific degree related schedule, that you can become exposed to something that may not be directly related to your degree. One example might be a class that has a lot of public speaking and presentations like a business class (eg management). If you're doing science/engineering and you haven't done a programming class, I would strongly recommend you do that.

If you are really really curious and drawn to chem, then I don't see why you shouldn't do it. I guess it depends on what you want to do after you graduate. My suggestions above are made especially if you want to get into the non-academic (but they would be beneficial even in this area). A lot of times when you're in industry or private sector you will be communicating with business/management types and you have to break things down for them in a way that they can get the big picture in the minimum amount of time.

 

[Leveret]

I'm majoring in physics as well, and I took o.chem1 last semester out of personal curiosity, just like you're thinking of doing. Unlike you, however, I made the mistake of taking it for a grade, despite being at a university reputed for having one of the toughest o.chem sequences in the US. To skip the details, it was the most taxing class I've ever taken, and there were times when it made me hate my life (typically the night before an exam). That said, I'm definitely glad I took it. The material was rough, but it was also fascinating, in my opinion. There was a substantial amount of memorization--certainly more than any physics class I've taken--but not as much as people make it out to be. As DDTea noted, it's mostly the premeds who end up trying to memorize everything by rote, and it's usually they who have the hardest time of it. I feel like physics majors have somewhat of an advantage here, in that we're generally more practiced at seeing the underlying cause of a phenomenon. It's the difference between memorizing a dozen different reactions between an alcohol and a carbonyl group, or simply seeing how an electron-rich region wants to attack a partial positive charge. In my experience, being more adept at (or at least more used to) looking at things in this manner made the material much more engrossing, even fun. I would hazard that, if I had audited the class instead of taking it for a grade, I might have greatly enjoyed it.

If you don't want to fully audit it, is there an option for you to simply watch the lectures if you have time, while not worrying about it if other things make you too busy?

 

[snipez90]

If the class size is large enough, can't you just sit in and watch the lectures without formally "auditing" the course, unless that is what you meant in the first place?

 

[MissSilvy]

I have a special place in my heart for O. Chem and I'm almost offended that you say it's all memorization!
...
However, since you're studying physics, I'm going to assume you've taken some thermodynamics. It may be a case of simply adapting your knowledge to chemical thermodynamics. Also, chemical kinetics is important. Definitely take the class and then, if you can get into it, try a course in physical organic chemistry. You'll see exactly what I mean!

I didn't mean to imply that it was straight-up regurgitating information at all :) I just mostly see bleary-eyed o-chem student with their mountains of index cards and get that impression. That said, I have not taken a thermo course just yet, but I am planning to relatively soon. I could wait and take o-chem after that, if it would help as much as you're saying but I think that most of my time next year will be taken up with senior thesis, research, and grad school applications so I'm hesitant to plan too much extra stuff in that time. But it is very refreshing to hear someone who actually likes the class and did well in it. I appreciate the input immensely.

I'm curious MissSilvy don't you need to take a year long intro sequence in chemistry to take organic or do you have credits?

Oh I did. Chem I is required for all science majors and I took Chem II (and the accompanying labs) as well out of curiosity and did very well in both of them. And I have taken basic programming and a scientific writing class, which involved just what you've mentioned (proposals, presentations and the like). I agree that one shouldn't be so narrowly focused on their own area in university but it often seems like 4 or 5 years is far too short of a time to even get a good grounding in your own specialty, much less branching out to other related fields.

I'm majoring in physics as well, and I took o.chem1 last semester out of personal curiosity, just like you're thinking of doing. Unlike you, however, I made the mistake of taking it for a grade, despite being at a university reputed for having one of the toughest o.chem sequences in the US.
...
As DDTea noted, it's mostly the premeds who end up trying to memorize everything by rote, and it's usually they who have the hardest time of it. I feel like physics majors have somewhat of an advantage here, in that we're generally more practiced at seeing the underlying cause of a phenomenon.
...
If you don't want to fully audit it, is there an option for you to simply watch the lectures if you have time, while not worrying about it if other things make you too busy?

Ouch, sounds like a rough deal. That was my concern when it was suggested that I take it for a grade. I have enough on my plate with just staying on top of physics classes, especially since they secretly rank us in our department for scholarships and awards (not just that you got an A, but exactly how you compared to the other A's in the class, making an extra incentive to chuck everything non-physics related but I digress).

It is good to know that being a physics major should make it a little easier. Just the entire aura surrounding o-chem is misleading and it's difficult to sort out what can be managed with a little good preparation and regular study habits and what is just a hellish class no matter what you do. But I am glad you found it worth it and will keep your advice in mind.

If the class size is large enough, can't you just sit in and watch the lectures without formally "auditing" the course, unless that is what you meant in the first place?

It's an online course, unfortunately, so there's really no 'sitting in' unless I'm registered in some capacity. Audit just means I show up and it doesn't go on my transcript in any capacity, so it's like an official 'sit-in' where I go.

 

[snipez90]

Crap, made a glaring oversight in the original post, my bad. My advice is to take it now when you have the opportunity. I think orgo is generally considered a pretty difficult subject, and that most of the trouble arises not due to bad study habits or laziness, but wrong approaches. Generally, I gather that the same problem-solving approaches in mathematics also apply in organic chemistry. Yet I did not realize this when I was introduced to the subject back in high school AP Chemistry. I definitely remember having more troubles even in basic orgo than I had in any other topic. But yeah as Leveret already mentioned, having the right approach is important. That, and a bit of interest will take you a long way.

 

[chill_factor]

Organic chemistry can be thought of a form of "math". It's still just manipulation of symbols, except it's not numbers, it's compounds. Some "operations" (reagents) have to be remembered just like you have to remember what adding and subtracting does, but beyond that, no, only premeds try to memorize everything and they're the ones that lower the curve to make it easier for everyone else.

If you "see" that carbocations are stabilized by the presence of additional R groups, and "see" that aromatics are highly stable due to delocalized pi-electrons and require huge energy to break this structure so they only undergo substitutions, adding/withdrawing electrons from the ring have affects on reactivity etc. then it's easy to do. I got straight A's in all 3 quarters of organic without a single flashcard, but it took me a 100 page notebook filled with literally thousands of problems completed.

 

[Jokerhelper]

An online O. Chem course? What about labs?

 

[MissSilvy]

An online O. Chem course? What about labs?

Lab is a separate course. Our chemistry department splits labs and lectures into two different classes for some reason.

 

[Jokerhelper]

Lab is a separate course. Our chemistry department splits labs and lectures into two different classes for some reason.

Yeah I noticed that seems to be common in some US schools. My pure guess is they might do that so that the price of each course is "fair" across all departments (ie. to avoid that for the same price, a history class has 3 hours of lectures a week, while a chemistry class has 3 hours of lecture, plus 1.5 hours of tutorial and 3 hours of lab every other week).
I imagine that might complicate people's schedules quite a bit.

 

[Jokerhelper]

Sort of off-topic, but I just noticed that my organic chemistry course for engineers that I will likely take next year doesn't have a lab. I loved my chemistry labs!