Baratin and Freidel: a spin foam model of ordinary particle physics

  • #91
Kea said:
All right. I don't think there'll be much category theory, but I do think there will be a word or two. And I don't mind losing a bet to you, Marcus!

o:)

Thing about categories, which even their partisans grant makes skeptics smile, is that with sufficient skill and ingenuity you can do ANY math in categories, especially now that n-categories (recursive categorization) has/have been added to the tool kit. Categories can be to math as macros are to programming.

The perennial question about categories is not "Can we do this theory in categories?" but "Can categories give us answers to these questions that we couldn't get without categories?" (Never mind "easier"; that's in the eye of the beholder. Some people get off on down and dirty hard analysis; look at Hardy; his hobby was simplifying awful complicated integrals).
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #92
selfAdjoint said:
... Categories can be to math as macros are to programming.
... "Can categories give us answers to these questions that we couldn't get without categories?"...

Pragmatic. proof of the pudding. Maybe my attitude is similar to yours. I also try to look at results, particularly does it make people SMARTER? if they use categorics part of the time, do they see analogies quicker? is their inventiveness speeded up?

it is a kind of "smart pills" (as in the expression "now you're taking smart pills") and using categorics seems to make some people frazzled or even wacky and some more creative. the result is not always good, but sometimes is.

In this regard I am only interested in research say since 2002 because only lately did I see it impinge on physics (in ways that are explicit and make sense to my limited perception). Maybe all categorics was useless to physics before that---I don't know about that.

but now I am beginning to see a correlation. the hidebound rejectionist attitude may be correlated with mediocrity and lack of inspiration. and some sense of "higher algebra" (whether categoric or some other) seems correlated to promising new physics ideas.

I am waiting to see---my attitude is "by their fruits ye shall know them". We will just see if the people who come up with the necessary new ideas are the people who are taking smart pills, or the others.

Probably trigonometry was not necessary. Hipparchus invented it around 140 BC roughly, and it was convenient but you PROBABLY COULD DO EVERYTHING just using geometry. nevertheless he made trig tables.
Probably Cartesian graph paper was not necessary. You probably could do everything with elaborate geometric constructions and not using plotted formulas. Probably some hidebound rejectionists were scoffing this. But Descartes went ahead and promoted his coordinate methods.
YOU CAN ALWAYS DO EVERYTHING THE OLD WAY. the question is whether the people using the new way appear to be more clever and do they invent the necessary things. and the question is do the people who reject the new way, do they seem mediocre and uninventive. Or is it different? I can only learn by watching the outcomes.
 
Last edited:
  • #93
Kea said:
All right. I don't think there'll be much category theory, but I do think there will be a word or two. And I don't mind losing a bet to you, Marcus!

o:)

We have a bet, Dea Kea!
If they include a word or two of categorics then you win.
If they have no explicit mention of categorics then I win.

this is only if the paper comes out this year. if the problem proves unexpectedly intractible and they get stalled, bets are off.

I wish someone would speculate what the Baratin Freidel 4D case will look like. I can see how they construct a flat Feynman spinfoam in 3D spacetime. It is just a PARTITION FUNCTION that somehow remembers that it is supposed to dwell in 3D even without a surrounding 3D spacetime to remind it. Like one of those shape-remembering pieces of metal, that go *boink* and flip back to their imprintment.

Formally it is all seemingly straightforward, the trick is to get the right partition function. but spinfoams in 3D are regarded as somewhat rudimentary. maybe in the 4D case the partition function will be similar but just a bit gruesome.

Is that all, do you think? Will everything look like the 3D case except messier? I think I could stand that, at least if I had a chocolate malted milkshake to steady my nerves.
 
Last edited:
  • #94
***
but now I am beginning to see a correlation. the hidebound rejectionist attitude may be correlated with mediocrity and lack of inspiration. and some sense of "higher algebra" (whether categoric or some other) seems correlated to promising new physics ideas.

I am waiting to see---my attitude is "by their fruits ye shall know them". We will just see if the people who come up with the necessary new ideas are the people who are taking smart pills, or the others.
***

So you say :
(a) 99,8 percent of physicists is unimaginative and more mediocre than category theorists
(b) you have to know category theory in order to be smarter

Moreover, there is only a hidebound rejectionist attitude when a large community accepts the use of the subject under consideration. :smile: :smile:

****
Probably Cartesian graph paper was not necessary. You probably could do everything with elaborate geometric constructions and not using plotted formulas. Probably some hidebound rejectionists were scoffing this. But Descartes went ahead and promoted his coordinate methods.
YOU CAN ALWAYS DO EVERYTHING THE OLD WAY. the question is whether the people using the new way appear to be more clever and do they invent the necessary things. and the question is do the people who reject the new way, do they seem mediocre and uninventive. Or is it different? I can only learn by watching the outcomes ***

This shows that you do not understand history. The method of Descartes was immediately recognized, just as special relativity, Maxwell theory and so on... . Instead of making erroneous political manifests you could contribute by explaining the useful, new insights for physics, as I asked you before.

Careful
 
Last edited:
  • #95
Careful said:
This shows that you do not understand history. The method of Descartes was immediately recognized, just as special relativity, Maxwell theory and so on...

Classic. :smile:
 
  • #96
Kea said:
Classic. :smile:

I think you meant classic blooper. Hope you did anyway.
My point was that historically there were some holdouts to the method of Descartes. Indeed there were lots! Newton for example.

Descartes explained his coordinates in 1637 (Discourse on Method, Geometry) and Newton's Principia appeared in 1687. Fifty years later. You can see him strictly avoiding Cartesian method. The example of Newton suggests that Cartesian coordinates WERE NOT FASHIONABLE at least in some circles even 50 years after exposition.

Here
http://members.tripod.com/~gravitee/booki2.htm
you can see Newton using Euclidean method to discuss circular motion in a plane, where we would today normally use Cartesian coordinates.

To make my point (the analogy with category theory) I only need to know that there were SOME holdouts
...Cartesian graph paper was not necessary. You probably could do everything with elaborate geometric constructions and not using plotted formulas. Probably some hidebound rejectionists were scoffing this. But Descartes went ahead and promoted his coordinate methods.

Cartesian coordinates are a good analogy to categorics. Even though they were available and would have been convenient, Newton made do with a pre-Cartesian approach. At least here in Book I section 2 and IIRC more generally. And unquestionably so did many others. Indeed 300 years later there were still people who strenuously avoided coordinates and preferred Euclid's methods. I knew one of them personally.
Newton of the Principia Book I was hardly the sole holdout, Greek style plane geometry still has class (it is classic after all).:smile:

What I am trying to say with this example, about categorics, is that one should not look for something that you CAN'T DO without the new method. There will often be some way to kludge around and make do, and that doesn't prove anything. It can even be a matter of taste. What one should look for is cases where someone GETS DIFFERENT IDEAS by solving the same problem by way of a different conceptual framework.

If anyone wants to see more of Newton Principia
http://members.tripod.com/~gravitee/toc.htm
 
Last edited:
  • #97
marcus said:
If they include a word or two of categorics then you win.
If they have no explicit mention of categorics then I win.

What do I win, if I win?

Yes, classic blooper.
:smile:
 
  • #98
What do I win, if I win?
Well, I could write a (slightly disrespectful) rhyming poem about how wonderful you are.
Let me think about it. It probably wouldn't be a limerick. most likely a doggerel quatrain.
But I'm the one who is going to win! Can you write just-a-touch disrespectful light verse?
================
I wrote this next when out of sorts, before I saw your post:

I think we should just avoid or ignore complaining about category theory in this thread. People should use it if it gives them good ideas and inspires them to solve problems. And NOT use it if it DOESN'T.
People who don't get any good from it should simply not bother. After a point, more talking to them will not help them. In some way it seems silly to argue about the Goods and Bads of some (to an extent optional) mathematical method or framework, with someone with a mindset unsuited to it.
==============

From my viewpoint, Baez has already made abundantly clear to me as observer that it is a great source of new ways to look at things and that it is coming into physics. Also Urs Schreiber is a bellweather in this respect. So I will be sure to keep my eye out for things happening with categorics and physics. I am also glad to see new stuff come out that does NOT use category theory. Whatever floats the researcher's boat.

So I will do what I can to ignore arguing about the merit of categorics, or lack thereof, and hope I succeed.
 
Last edited:
  • #99
**I think you meant classic blooper. Hope you did anyway.
My point was that historically there were some holdouts to the method of Descartes. Indeed there were lots! Newton for example.**

This example is not even a counterexample to what I said. :rolleyes: The method of descartes was for sure accepted by more than 0,2 percent of scientists.

By the way Marcus, for someone with a nonexpert opinion, you often refer to the notion of wrong/right mindset and to what is hopeful/sufficient evidence for something.

Careful
 
Last edited:
  • #100
Careful said:
Ohw are you going to knitpick now on the mere fact that strictly speaking this entanglement aspect does not belong to the spin foam formalism. I did not miss that kinematical analogy which is quite simple to imagine and does not require nCob at all. But again you are not answering my questions, neither do I understand why you suggest we should take these things (which were long known already) seriously.

You win; I give up. In fact I gave up online debates some time ago.

[...] your ``solution'' to quantum entanglement has been studied in one form or another for many decades: for example it was well known how to do this using backwards causation (hence playing around with two arrows of time) in Minkowski - Aharonov has toyed with this in the eighties. Models where entangled particles are connected by some invisible rope and where a twist is somehow communicated over a spacelike distance are old.

For those who are interested:

Such models aren't http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/quantum_spacetime/" . I'm talking about how the category of Hilbert spaces (Hilb) and the category of n-dimensional cobordisms (nCob) are both monoidal categories with duals. The fact that Hilb has duals allows for quantum teleportation; the fact that nCob also has them is what allows you to straighten out a kink in a rope (in the case n = 1).

This is simply a fact, not a "model" - and certainly not a model where quantum entangled particles are connected in some way, e.g. by an "invisible rope". Quantum entanglement arises from the fact that Hilb is non-cartesian, unlike the category of sets. nCob is also non-cartesian.

(For a monoidal category to have duals, it must be non-cartesian, but not vice versa. Or, in physics speak: we need entangled states to carry out quantum teleportation, but we also need more. All this is nicely explained in Bob Coecke's paper on http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0510032" .)

While these are just mathematical facts, they point the way towards models of quantum gravity, by showing us which class of mathematical structures combine the physically important features of general relativity and quantum mechanics.

But, we need to take another step or two - and probably many more we haven't seen yet. For starters, nCob is better thought of as a monoidal n-category with duals. This describes all the ways we can stick together small pieces of n-dimensional spacetime; it captures the n-dimensionality of spacetime in a way that a mere category can't do.

This suggests trying to define "nHilb" - an n-category of "n-Hilbert spaces" - and showing it's a monoidal n-category with duals. I did this for http://arxiv.org/abs/q-alg/9609018" a while ago, and it turns out to be quite interesting. In particular: just as Hilb gives rise to Feynman diagrams, 2Hilb gives rise to "spin foams" - a 2-dimensional generalization of Feynman diagrams. If we went to nHilb for higher n, we'd get still higher-dimensiaonal diagrams.

I've never emphasized this aspect in my papers on spin foams, since I know most physicists don't like higher categories. But, I explain how it works in weeks 1-3 of the http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/qg-winter2005/" from my quantum gravity seminar.

A lot of work has been done on spin foam models by now, but they're still mysterious. For example, we've all heard a lot about the Barrett-Crane model, but it's still unclear why Simone Speziale and Dan Christensen are getting really good agreement with the graviton propagator based on calculations involving a single big 4-simplex, refinements of http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0508124" . They made a lot of progress on this last week: Dan's supercomputer calculations match what Simone is getting analytically. But why should these calculations work at all - after all, if any model like this is right, you'd expect spacetime to be made of lots of small 4-simplexes. Viqar Husain has some ideas...

And then there's the http://arxiv.org/abs/math.QA/0306440" . This explicitly uses infinite-dimensional 2-Hilbert spaces, namely representations of the Poincare 2-group. But what does it mean, physically? Is it related to Baratin and Freidel's spin foam model for ordinary quantum field theory on Minkowski spacetime? I guessed it was... but my students Jeff Morton and Derek Wise have been doing a bunch of calculations with Baratin and Freidel, and they seem to be concluding that it's not.

However, they found the Crane-Sheppeard model includes the Barrett-Crane model in a certain sneaky way. And, perhaps the best part is: Freidel now understands 2-Hilbert spaces and 2-groups, and he wants to keep studying models based on them!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #101
I'll fetch some related links, in case something turns up or anyone is interested. I saw some recent papers by Speziale and also by Christensen and friends. UWO must be a good place to do computational quantum gravity, which ought to become important.
john baez said:
... why Simone Speziale and Dan Christensen are getting really good agreement with the graviton propagator based on calculations involving a single big 4-simplex, refinements of http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0508124" . They made a lot of progress on this last week: Dan's supercomputer calculations match what Simone is getting analytically....

Here are some Christensen links. He is at Uni Western Ontario---part in QG-physics and part in math+computer science. They have supercomputer facilities. Wade Cherrington is a grad student there, and Josh Willis from Ashtekar's Penn State institute is a post doc. If it turns out to be possible to numerically simulate the quantum evolution of a world geometry by means spin foam then I suppose this might eventually happen on a UWO cluster.
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0512004
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0509080
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0508088
==========

Here are some Speziale links
1. gr-qc/0606074
A semiclassical tetrahedron
Carlo Rovelli, Simone Speziale
10 pages

2. gr-qc/0605123
Towards the graviton from spinfoams: higher order corrections in the 3d toy model
Etera R. Livine, Simone Speziale, Joshua L. Willis
24 pages, many figures

3. gr-qc/0604044
Graviton propagator in loop quantum gravity
Eugenio Bianchi, Leonardo Modesto, Carlo Rovelli, Simone Speziale
41 pages, 6 figures

4. gr-qc/0512102
Towards the graviton from spinfoams: the 3d toy model
Simone Speziale
8 pages, 2 figures
Journal-ref: JHEP 0605 (2006) 039

5. gr-qc/0508106
On the perturbative expansion of a quantum field theory around a topological sector
Authors: Carlo Rovelli, Simone Speziale
7 pages

6. gr-qc/0508007
From 3-geometry transition amplitudes to graviton states
Authors: Federico Mattei, Carlo Rovelli (CPT), Simone Speziale, Massimo Testa
18 pages
Journal-ref: Nucl.Phys. B739 (2006) 234-253

Here is another interesting thing that turned up:

... perhaps the best part is: Freidel now understands 2-Hilbert spaces and 2-groups, and he wants to keep studying models based on them!
Kea will be glad to hear that. :smile:
Don't let me get in the way if someone wants to be reply to the general sense of JB's post, I am just assembling some detail to think about in that connection.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #102
Just an small sugestion.

In my opinion the programing analogue of cathegory theory would be UML (uniform modelling language). It is fine to plot diagrams and clarify flow of information. But you can do everything just implementing the apropiate class.

Returngin to the maintopic, i have just made a first (and complete) reading of arXiv:gr-qc/0607014.

To say it easy, I had readed the talks in other thread about de-sitter but the by far the part which i understand less is the origin of the point lagrangian that they present in eq 3.1. I mean, it is basically the lagrangean of a classicla point particle carriying somehow information about so(3,1) álgebra or something similar? Wich sense makes that?

I see that they later show that it describes a particles with "all that good behaviours" but even so i don´t see clear that lagrangian (yeah, sure it is my fault).

And later, in chapter 5 when it makes a wilson loop with the exponential of that lagrangian, i simply don´t see the relation with the Feyman amplitudes. Maybe i need to read some previous papers? perhaps the ones aobut hidden quantum gravity in 3-d Feyman diagrams?
 
Last edited:
  • #103
***
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/quantum_spacetime/" . I'm talking about how the category of Hilbert spaces (Hilb) and the category of n-dimensional cobordisms (nCob) are both monoidal categories with duals. The fact that Hilb has duals allows for quantum teleportation; the fact that nCob also has them is what allows you to straighten out a kink in a rope (in the case n = 1). ***

Yes, and as I said, I acknowledge that - I merely was commenting on how serious we should take these analogies (which I deduced for myself a few years ago while thinking about topology change).

***
This is simply a fact, not a "model" - and certainly not a model where quantum entangled particles are connected in some way, e.g. by an "invisible rope". Quantum entanglement arises from the fact that Hilb is non-cartesian, unlike the category of sets. nCob is also non-cartesian. **

Sure, but what is the spacetime interpretation you have in mind ?! I tried at least to offer some ways of looking at entanglement (or quantum teleportation) which would pave the road for such abstraction. I never claimed that your ``absolute truth'' was limited to those viewpoints, but said that it could be found by thinking in these ways (remember : abstraction of specifications of spin foam models). So, I have put myself in the weak position, not you; you have limited yourself to repeating the abstract results and their universality (as well as which of the latter pictures you do not have in mind) while I was interested in getting out the physics. I do not know what is worse, to keep on stressing the abstract results or the failure to recognize that the other party is begging for a specific way of looking at it (for example in terms of wormholes).

***
While these are just mathematical facts, they point the way towards models of quantum gravity, by showing us which class of mathematical structures combine the physically important features of general relativity and quantum mechanics. ***

I disagree here and I explained several times why - it is kind of silly you keep on repeating this without adressing these points - shows there was never an online discussion to begin with. I asked you how you would solve the problem of time while keeping measurement as it stands and still have a reasonable theory to end with (that is one which makes solid predictions). The reason why I ask you is that I came to the conclusion that doing so will require a profound change of the dynamics of measurement in QM (as some people in MIT try to realize). You could of course say : ``I limit myself to taking expectation values'' but then I would not see why one would not be pleased with merely imposing a sufficiently high UV cutoff (as well as a macroscopic nonlocality scale) in perturbative QG.

In the beginning you said you are not doing physics anymore, so why not tell what problems you see in it ??

Careful
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #104
Careful said:
I disagree here and I explained several times why - it is kind of silly you keep on repeating this without adressing these points - shows there was never an online discussion to begin with.

With you, there was never a discussion. Quite true.

I asked you how you would solve the problem of time while keeping measurement as it stands...

We are not keeping measurement as it stands, as I have said many times. Neither are we repeating in full detail here what has been said in many good papers, some of which I suggest you start reading.

The reason why I ask you is that I came to the conclusion that doing so will require a profound change of the dynamics of measurement in QM...

Correct.
 
  • #105
**With you, there was never a discussion. Quite true.**

There has never been any discussion between category theorists and anyone here , since basically I am the only non-silent ``opposition''.

***
We are not keeping measurement as it stands, as I have said many times. Neither are we repeating in full detail here what has been said in many good papers, some of which I suggest you start reading.
****

I am not asking for any detail, I want a rough physical picture ! Explain in words what the mechanism is you have in mind for dealing with entanglement (and please do not refer me to the aforementioned papers, since these do not contain any such thing - there is only abstraction) and other crucial issues ...

**
Correct. **

So, please make a sketch of the mechanism *you* have in mind, then try to tell us why categories would come in handy here; not in the reverse order ! Roughly speaking, if you would not change measurement too drastically (no realism), then I guess you have to end up with something like an improved GRW, a scheme a la Penrose... (there are other possibilities too but those jump immediately to my mind). Anyway, something which would make the total dynamics non-linear.

I think it would be good for many people here if you would start by doing that : put some of your cards on the table - let us talk about physics first and suggest then how your categories come out in a *deeper* way, just as this happened in the de Rahm theorem :smile: . Referring to papers is not the way to go, especially when no response to criticism comes out.


Careful
 
Last edited:
  • #106
Probably a bunch of us have had a look at Baez paper QUANTUM QUANDARIES, which introduces the notion of a *-category.
nCob and Hilb are both categories of this sort.

today Robert Coecke posted a paper developing similar themes.
It uses different terminology and a somewhat more restrictive definition.

the notion of a "dagger-compact" category

I still have to find how to type a dagger. [tries various things]
It looks like it is OPTION TEE!

OK Coecke, I mean Okey Dokey. this paper will probably turn out to be used and cited some in the process of categories permeating physics through something Coecke calls CATEGORICAL SEMANTICS.

So I had better post the abstract.

BTW Coecke's reference [4] is Baez Quantum Quandaries.
and his reference [30] is THE DISENCHANTMENT OF JOHN VON NEUMANN WITH HILBERT SPACES.
von Neumann became dubious of Hilbert spaces and declared they were not where it's at.
(that is, not where Quantum Mechanics is at)
 
Last edited:
  • #107
Here is the Coecke et al new paper:
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0608035
Quantum measurements without sums
Bob Coecke, Dusko Pavlovic
36 pages and 46 pictures; earlier version circulated since November 2005 with as title 'Quantum Measurements as Coalgebras''. Invited paper to appear in: The Mathematics of Quantum Computation and Technology; Chen, Kauffman and Lomonaco (eds.); Taylor and Francis

---sample exerpt from page 2 of the article---
Ever since John von Neumann denounced, back in 1935 [30], his own foundation of quantum mechanics[/color] in terms of Hilbert spaces, there has been an ongoing search for a high-level, fully abstract formalism of quantum mechanics. With the emergence of quantum information technology, this quest became more important than ever. The low-level matrix manipulations in quantum informatics are akin to machine programming with bit strings from the early days of computing, which are of course inadequate. 1

...
...
A recent research thread, initiated by Abramsky and the first author [2], aims at recasting the quantum mechanical formalism in categorical terms. The upshot of categorical semantics is that it displays concepts in a compositional and typed framework. In the case of quantum mechanics, it uncovers the quantum information-flows [6] which are hidden in the usual formalism. Moreover, while the investigations of quantum structures have so far been predominantly academic, categorical semantics open an alley towards a practical, low-overhead tool for the design and analysis of quantum informatic protocols, versatile enough to capture both quantitative and qualitative aspects of quantum information [2, 7, 10, 13, 31]. In fact, some otherwise complicated quantum informatic protocols become trivial exercises in this framework [8]. On the other hand, compared with the order-theoretic framework for quantum mechanics in terms of Birkhoff-von Neumann’s quantum logic [29], this categorical setting comes with logical derivations, topologically embodied into something as simple as “yanking a rope” 2. Moreover, in terms of deductive machanism, it turns out to be some kind of “super-logic” as compared to the Birkhoff-von Neumann “non-logic”.
---endquote---

Baez was talking about stretching out a piece of wet spaghetti. curious propositions in quantum theory, seeming paradoxes, become trivial exercises as Coecke says. Baez was trying to get that idea across---basically one of the reasons why one might see categorical semantics filter into physics.

Reference [30] in the above exerpt is:
"[30] Rédei, M. (1997) Why John von Neumann did not like the Hilbert space formalism of quantum mechanics (and what he liked instead). Studies in History and Philosophy of Modern Physics 27, 493–510. "

Here is the abstract:
"Sums play a prominent role in the formalisms of quantum mechanics, be it for mixing and superposing states, or for composing state spaces. Surprisingly, a conceptual analysis of quantum measurement seems to suggest that quantum mechanics can be done without direct sums, expressed entirely in terms of the tensor product. The corresponding axioms define classical spaces as objects that allow copying and deleting data. Indeed, the information exchange between the quantum and the classical worlds is essentially determined by their distinct capabilities to copy and delete data. The sums turn out to be an implicit implementation of this capabilities. Realizing it through explicit axioms not only dispenses with the unnecessary structural baggage, but also allows a simple and intuitive graphical calculus. In category-theoretic terms, classical data types are dagger-compact Frobenius algebras, and quantum spectra underlying quantum measurements are Eilenberg-Moore coalgebras induced by these Frobenius algebras."
 
Last edited:
  • #108
the folklore (and I think this has been reliably confirmed by at least one scholar) is that in 1925 around the time he devised matrix mechanics version of QG Heisenberg did not know what a matrix was
and had never heard of Hilbert spaces.

According to the JB history draft, page 5, Heisenberg came to show a formula to Max Born* who informed him that he had "re-invented matrix multiplication".

Apparently the young physicists inventing QM at that time hadn't heard of Hilbert spaces. It was John von Neumann, a mathematician, who introduced them and showed them how to formulate QM with operators on a Hilbert space. However soon afterwards, von Neumann became disenchanted with the Hilbertspace formulation and wanted things to be done differently. BUT BY THEN IT WAS TOO LATE.
The whole pack was already off like hounds after a fox.

please correct any historical errors.*Max Born was Heisenberg's mentor at Göttingen, where he was a visiting student and later got a job. Heisenberg's thesis advisor was Sommerfeld, in Munich, and his thesis was in hydrodynamics. After it was accepted in 1923. he immediately returned to Göttingen and worked as Born's assistant..
http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p06.htm
It seems that although Max Born served as a mentor to the young Heisenberg, he did not supervise his PhD thesis.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1954/born-bio.html

=============

at first glance, it looks to me like what JB was calling a "star-category", Robert Coecke would prefer to call a "dagger-category".
I think someone with an ear for English will be apt to prefer "star-category" to "dagger-category" for several reasons. Tthe phrase rings better---with a better assortment of vowells. It has fewer syllables. The concept is all about things like adjoint of an operator A, something often written A*, the complex conjugate transpose of a matrix. Mathematicians frequently use the asterisk * for duals and adjoints and such.
So if Coecke insists on the nomenclature "compact" then a sensible compromise would be "compact star category"------instead of "dagger-compact category"----but we will just have to wait and see

here is a picture of Bob Coecke (oxford computing lab)
http://web.comlab.ox.ac.uk/oucl/people/bob.coecke.html
he has an impressive list of publications since around 1999
http://arxiv.org/find/grp_physics/1/au:+Coecke_Bob/0/1/0/all/0/1

the co-author Dusko Pavlovic is at Kestrel Institute in Palo Alto. It is the not-for-profit institute connected with the software development company Kestrel Development. Both wings of Kestrel sound like interesting places to work.
 
Last edited:
  • #109
star versus dagger, compact versus closed

marcus said:
at first glance, it looks to me like what JB was calling a "star-category", Robert Coecke would prefer to call a "dagger-category"

I think so. A star-category is a category where any morphism

f: x -> y

can be "run in reverse" to give a morphism

f*: y -> x

and we have

f** = f

(fg)* = g*f*

Is this the same as Coecke's "dagger-category"?

I think someone with an ear for English will be apt to prefer "star-category" to "dagger-category" for several reasons. The phrase rings better---with a better assortment of vowels. It has fewer syllables.

That's true - it's also been in use longer! With no offense intended, I think people working on categories and quantum computation are reinventing certain concepts developed by people working on http://arxiv.org/abs/math.CT/9812040" . This is good: it means these concepts are really important. But, it causes some notational conflicts.

The concept is all about things like adjoint of an operator A, something often written A*, the complex conjugate transpose of a matrix.

Exactly, that's the main example - but physicists often write this with a dagger instead of a star.

So if Coecke insists on the nomenclature "compact" then a sensible compromise would be "compact star category"------instead of "dagger-compact category"----but we will just have to wait and see.

Compact categories have been around for a long, long time - they're categories where objects have nice duals. How did the term "compact" get used for this? Well, for one thing, compact categories are a special case of closed categories, where given two objects x,y you have an object

HOM(x,y)

that acts like "the maps from x to y".

For example, consider the category of vector spaces. Given two vector spaces x and y, HOM(x,y) is the vector space of linear operators from x to y.

A closed category is called "closed" because normally we have a set of morphisms from x to y, but now we have an object of morphisms from x to y, so we don't have to leave our category to talk about "hom"! So, a closed category is like its own self-contained universe! Cool, huh? :cool:

Of course the classic example of a closed category is the category of sets, where there's a set of functions from a set x to a set y. When they invented closed categories back in 1966, http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/context/20076/0" were trying to let other categories be "self-contained" like this. It's one step towards dethroning the category of sets - getting it to stop acting better than everyone else.

Every topos is a closed category... that was a later step towards dethroning the category of sets.

A compact category is a special sort of closed category where

HOM(x,y) = x* tensor y

For example, this is true for the category of finite-dimensional vector spaces. It's not true for the category of sets, nor for most topoi. Topoi are cartesian closed, not compact, so they embody intuitiionistic logic, not quantum logic.

Now I can finally explain the term "compact" - this is taking long than I expected.

Since "compact" sets in a topological space are specially nice "closed" sets, when people discovered specially nice closed categories they decided to call them compact! :-p

In other words, it's just an erudite joke, of the sort nobody finds funny except mathematicians.

By the way, I haven't given the actual precise definitions of closed and compact categories here, just the intuitions. I did give the precise definition of a star-category, though.

Personally, I often call a star-category a "category with duals for morphisms", and a compact category a "category with duals for objects".

In quantum mechanics we often want categories with both, which I call "categories with duals". I think Abramsky and Coecke call these "dagger-compact categories", or maybe "strongly compact categories". The terminology is more confusing than the actual ideas.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #110
Coecke seems to use daggers (\dagger) on morphisms (which one gets from a functor C^{\textrm{op}} \rightarrow C for a symmetric tensor category) and stars (*) on objects as part of the compact structure. One then has

f^{\dagger} = (f^{*})_{*} = (f_{*})^{*}

which is explained on pages 7 and 8. Most physicists should prefer this to the reverse, so I think he's made a great effort to sort out the notational headaches.

The funny trapezium shapes are very clever, because then little diamond pieces can form and these represent scalars which can float about just like loops in tangle diagrams! Take a look at page 29.

:smile:
 
Last edited:
  • #111
Is this a dagger which I see before me?

The title of my post is quote from Shakespeare's Macbeth. Clearly Macbeth was reading Coecke's paper at the time, puzzled by why Coecke failed to use star-categories.

marcus said:
I still have to find how to type a dagger. [tries various things]
It looks like it is OPTION TEE!

You can also use TeX, with the command \dagger:

\dagger

This paper will probably turn out to be used and cited some in the process of categories permeating physics through something Coecke calls CATEGORICAL SEMANTICS.So I had better post the abstract.

Thanks! I'm not sure this thread on Baratin-Freidel is the best place, since it'll take quite a while for categorical semantics, quantum computation, spin foams and MacDowell-Mansouri gravity to blend into one grand subject... if they ever do! But heck, let's be optimists - especially since it's Saturday night here in Shanghai, and beer is cheap: about 40 cents for a 32-ounce bottle.

After Jeff Morton and Derek Wise, my next grad student in line to finish up is Mike Stay. It'll take him a few more years. I'm working with him on quantum computation and categorical semantics.

Categorical semantics is where you describe a theory by giving a category C with some extra structure, and looking at functors that preserve this structure:

F: C -> D

where D is another category of the same sort of structure. You think of C as a theory and F as a model of this theory in D. Here "theory" and "model" are being used the way logicians use these terms, not physicists!

Lawvere invented this idea in his radical http://www.tac.mta.ca/tac/reprints/articles/5/tr5abs.html" - a setup for describing very general sorts of algebraic gadgets and proving theorems about all these kinds of gadgets in one fell swoop.

There's been a lot of work on categorical semantics since then, especially by computer scientists.

More recently physicists have gotten interested in this stuff, for example when C and D are "symmetric monoidal categories with duals" and F was "symmetric monoidal functor preserving duals". If you take

C = nCob, D = Hilb

then a functor F of this sort is called a topological quantum field theory.

(I explained this in an amusing tale involving a wizard and his apprentices http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/qg-winter2001/qg11.1.html" .)

Note that physicists use the term "topological quantum field theory" for what the logicians would call a "model of the theory nCob in Hilb".

Anyway, since I've been emphasizing this relationship between categorical semantics and physics, computer scientists have started inviting me to their conferences, which is very nice. I spent a month earlier this year in Marseille for that very reason, and I gave a course on http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/universal/" in which I explained this stuff in much, much more detail.



Is this a dagger which I see before me,
The handle toward my hand? Come, let me clutch thee.
I have thee not, and yet I see thee still.
Art thou not, fatal vision, sensible
To feeling as to sight? or art thou but
A dagger of the mind, a false creation,
Proceeding from the heat-oppressed brain?
I see thee yet, in form as palpable
As this which now I draw: \dagger


- William Shakespeare
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #112
this thread is partly about the expected 4D paper of Aristide Baratin and Laurent Freidel

and also has come to be about the percolation of categorics into physics

a propos which, there was TWF 236 and also some entertaining anecdotal stuff in a SPR FOLLOWUP to TWF 236----post #5 on the thread---which was so funny I want to quote an exerpt:

===quote Baez TWF 236 followup===
>(I don't recall if it was Rutherford or Lord Kelvin who
>claimed this.)

Lord Kelvin is mainly noted for having dismissed *vectors* as
unnecessary to physics. He wrote:
Quaternions came from Hamilton after his really good work had been
done; and though beautifully ingenious, have been an unmixed evil
to those who have touched them in any way, including Maxwell.
Vector is a useless survival, or offshoot from quaternions, and has
never been of the slightest use to any creature.


To understand this, remember that J. Willard Gibbs, the first person
to get a math PhD in the USA, introduced the modern approach to vectors
around 1881, long after Hamilton's quaternions first became popular. He
took the quaternion and chopped it into its "scalar" and "vector" parts.

Vectors are another great example of a convenience that's so convenient
that they're now seen as a necessity.

It's mainly the American physicist John Slater, inventor of the "Slater
determinant", who is famous for having dismissed groups as unnecessary to physics. He wrote:

It was at this point that Wigner, Hund, Heitler, and Weyl entered the picture with their "Gruppenpest": the pest of the group theory [actually, the correct translation is "the group plague"] ... The authors of the "Gruppenpest" wrote papers which were incomprehensible to those like me who had not studied group theory... The practical consequences appeared to be negligible, but everyone felt that to be in the mainstream one had to learn about it. I had what I can only describe as a feeling of outrage at the turn which the subject had taken ... it was obvious that a great many other physicists were as disgusted as I had been with the group-theoretical approach to the problem. As I heard later, there were remarks made such as "Slater has slain the 'Gruppenpest'". I believe that no other piece of work I have done was so universally popular.

And now, of course, it's categories that some physicists dismiss, just
as they're catching on.

So, judging by the history, you can be almost sure that if a bunch of physicists
angrily dismiss a branch of mathematics as useless to physics,
it's useful for physics.
The branches of math that don't yet have applications to physics don't arouse such controversy!

===endquote===

I highlighted some memorable parts. Especially nice about "vector is a useless survival...never been the slightest use to any creature."
 
Last edited:
  • #113
I see interesting these historical apportations. But I think that preciselly history, recent history, is the reason behind these reluctance to quaternions.

We have had that from the beginning of the century to the eighties in physics there has been minor changes inthe math background needed by a physician.

Only group theory, in a very elementary framework and diferential geometry if you are into RG were real innovations (hilbert spaces in most places are not much more that a convenient framework ofr the join of fourireer analisis and linear álgebra).

And with these very modest bagage it was created relativity, quantum mechanics, modern statisticla mechanics and quantum field theory. That is, the whole amount of experimentally tested physics.

Them, in the eigties it came a modernization of the math background of the theoretical physicans pusing them into the realm of a math usually only teached in postgraduat of math courses (of course there was a few pioners as hawking and penrose, or maybe people working on monopoles ansuch that).

And with all that pletora of maths there has not beenany mayor advance on tested theoretical physic.

I suspect people is just tired of learning just more maths and want phyisical intuition, development of ideas with current background in math (wich is alerady a lot of math) and some experimental result.

On the other side theoretical physics has gone mainly with very formal math (I really like topology, but "funcional analisys" kind of things are a bit annoying).

And on the other side we have a lot of new math which has had a marginal impact intheretical physic. I refere to "chaos" math which is lot less formal and has had a lot more of impact inthe way of think about natural phenomena.

I currently am teaching ecologist docotorates some of these new maths (dynamical systems, linear programing, markov chains,game theory, graph theory, even "complexity", etc,of course in a light way) and I find it mucho more atractive to be learned than category theory. And I also find that with time these math will play role in quantum gravity.

But well, if it becomes clear tahat we need to learn in deep categories we will do. I really thank the efforts of Jonh Baez by beeing so patient and pedagogical. I guess he hast just had a bad luck with the time to introduce a new math language to the physical comunity.
 
Last edited:
  • #114
Kea said:
Coecke seems to use daggers (\dagger) on morphisms (which one gets from a functor C^{\textrm{op}} \rightarrow C for a symmetric tensor category) and stars (*) on objects as part of the compact structure. One then has

f^{\dagger} = (f^{*})_{*} = (f_{*})^{*}

which is explained on pages 7 and 8. Most physicists should prefer this to the reverse, so I think he's made a great effort to sort out the notational headaches.
...

Thanks Kea,
perhaps it is all for the best. (in any case what can one do?)
Two more Coecke papers appeared today on arxiv. Here is one of them, of possible interest here.
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0608072
POVMs and Naimark's theorem without sums
Bob Coecke, Eric Oliver Paquette
"We introduce POVMs within the purely graphical categorical quantum mechanical formalism in terms of dagger-compact categories (cf. quant-ph/0402130, quant-ph/0510032 & quant-ph/0608035). Our definition is justified by two facts: i. We provide a counterpart to Naimark's theorem, which establishes a bijective correspondence between POVMs and abstract projective measurements on an extended system; ii. In the category of Hilbert spaces and linear maps our definition coincides with the usual one."

in case it is wanted, here is the Wiki article on Positive Operator-Valued Measures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POVM
POVM is an important concept in quantum theory, basic to formalizing quantum measurement.
I interpret his targeting this for the "without sums" treatment as his aiming to blitz QM formalism
and hit several major landmarks in quick succession.

Again this paper cited JB's Quantum Quandaries, as its reference [4]

I don't know that there is any special reason to discuss the other Coecke paper that came on arxiv today
http://arxiv.org/abs/math.LO/0608166
the abstract refers to the muddy children problem. If that is familiar you might want to look it up.
 
Last edited:
  • #115
when's that paper being published?

marcus said:
Thanks Kea,
perhaps it is all for the best. (in any case what can one do?)
Two more Coecke papers appeared today on arxiv. Here is one of them, of possible interest here.
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0608072
POVMs and Naimark's theorem without sums
Bob Coecke, Eric Oliver Paquette
"We introduce POVMs within the purely graphical categorical quantum mechanical formalism in terms of dagger-compact categories (cf. quant-ph/0402130, quant-ph/0510032 & quant-ph/0608035). Our definition is justified by two facts: i. We provide a counterpart to Naimark's theorem, which establishes a bijective correspondence between POVMs and abstract projective measurements on an extended system; ii. In the category of Hilbert spaces and linear maps our definition coincides with the usual one."

in case it is wanted, here is the Wiki article on Positive Operator-Valued Measures
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POVM
POVM is an important concept in quantum theory, basic to formalizing quantum measurement.
I interpret his targeting this for the "without sums" treatment as his aiming to blitz QM formalism
and hit several major landmarks in quick succession.

Again this paper cited JB's Quantum Quandaries, as its reference [4]

I don't know that there is any special reason to discuss the other Coecke paper that came on arxiv today
http://arxiv.org/abs/math.LO/0608166
the abstract refers to the muddy children problem. If that is familiar you might want to look it up.
 
  • #116
bananan said:
when's that paper being published?

Obviously they all have been published in PDF on the web, so I think you must mean published in paper, and I don't know. but tell me which particular paper you want to know about and I will see if I can figure out.
 
  • #117
marcus said:
Obviously they all have been published in PDF on the web, so I think you must mean published in paper, and I don't know. but tell me which particular paper you want to know about and I will see if I can figure out.

With any luck, sometime soon you can read this paper on the arXiv:

Aristide Baratin and Laurent Freidel
Hidden quantum gravity in 4d Feynman diagrams: emergence of spin foams

The idea is that any ordinary quantum field theory in 4d Minkowski spacetime can be reformulated as a spin foam model. This spin foam model is thus a candidate for the G -> 0 limit of any spin foam model of quantum gravity and matter!

In other words, we now have a precise target to shoot at. We don't know a spin foam model that gives gravity in 4 dimensions, but now we know one that gives the G -> 0 limit of gravity: i.e., ordinary quantum field theory. So, we should make up a spin foam model that reduces to Baratin and Freidel's when G -> 0.
 
  • #118
bananan said:
when's that paper being published?

I see what you are talking about now. Your originally quoted my post #114 which mentioned Coecke papers so I thought you were talking about those.
You are asking about the Baratin Freidel paper that John Baez mentioned at the start of this thread!

I am sorry to say but I do not know and I cannot think of any way to get a good estimate.
My guess is EARLY OCTOBER (this is based on nothing else than my past experience of the spacing of major Freidel papers.)
 
Last edited:
  • #119
marcus said:
I see what you are talking about now. Your originally quoted my post #114 which mentioned Coecke papers so I thought you were talking about those.
You are asking about the Baratin Freidel paper that John Baez mentioned at the start of this thread!

I am sorry to say but I do not know and I cannot think of any way to get a good estimate.
My guess is EARLY OCTOBER (this is based on nothing else than my past experience of the spacing of major Freidel papers.)

Back some time ago (August), we were discussing the 4D Baratin Freidel paper, which John Baez called our attention to.

I know the paper has been circulated in draft, at least to a few people. Getting comments, I guess---maybe suggestions for changes and additions.

I am expecting "early October" for the appearance of this paper.

but one can't know. just hope no hitches developed. I'm actually curious and a bit impatient. Hope all is well with them and with the research, and that we will soon see the results!
 
  • #120
Amazingly, John Baez started this thread 16 June introducing us to the ideas of the Baratin-Freidel paper. and that was almost 5 months before the paper actually appeared!

It is called being forehanded.
When you say thank you to JB the feeling is always a little like to the Lone Ranger, he already went somewhere (like down to the n-cat saloon) and left a silver bullet on the mouse-pad
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
26
Views
5K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
3K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K