Basic Question: Order of permutations in Sn

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the order of permutations in the symmetric group Sn, specifically exploring the implications of a permutation σ in S5 satisfying σ^7 = I (the identity permutation). Participants examine the relationship between the order of σ and the structure of the group S5, as well as the application of Lagrange's Theorem.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks if there is a theorem or application for determining the order of a permutation in Sn.
  • Another participant states that since 7 is prime, σ must either be the identity or S5 contains a cyclic group of order 7, which they argue is impossible.
  • A follow-up question requests clarification on the property that leads to the conclusion about the cyclic group of order 7.
  • Basic number theory is mentioned as relevant, specifically that the order of σ must divide 7.
  • One participant questions whether it is valid to assert that the order of σ is at most 6 due to it being in S5.
  • Another participant agrees but notes that establishing this requires more work than the previous argument.
  • A participant expresses curiosity about why a cyclic group of order 7 is deemed impossible, suggesting that σ must equal the identity for some k < 7.
  • Another participant mentions Lagrange's Theorem and its relevance to the order of subgroups.
  • A later reply elaborates that since σ^7 = id, the order of <σ> must be either 1 or 7, and since 7 does not divide the order of S5 (120), it concludes that <σ> = {id}.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express some agreement on the implications of Lagrange's Theorem and the order of permutations, but there are differing views on the necessity and clarity of the arguments presented regarding the impossibility of a cyclic group of order 7.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions regarding the properties of permutations and group orders are discussed, but the discussion does not resolve the nuances of these mathematical concepts fully.

ZZ Specs
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Is there a theorem or any useful application for knowing the order of a permutation belonging to the symmetric group Sn?

For example,

Lets say σ is a permutation belonging to S5; i.e. σ is a permutation of {1,2,3,4,5}. If we are given that σ^7 = I (the identity permutation), then how can we show that necessarily σ = I ?

Thank you all for your time and help.
 
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Since 7 is prime this means either σ = id or S5 contains a cyclic group of order 7. The latter is impossible and so the desired conclusion follows.
 
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Thank you for your reply, much appreciated. Could you further explain what property shows that "either σ = id or S5 contains a cyclic group of order 7"?
 
Basic number theory. The order of σ must divide 7.
 
Is it valid to say that because σ is in S5, the order of sigma is at most 6?
 
That is true, but it takes more work to establish than the argument I sketched above.
 
In that case, why can we say that a cyclic group of order 7 is impossible? I was thinking that because σ lies in S5 (i.e. |σ| ≤ 6 ), σ^k must equal the identity for some k < 7.

Is there another way to establish this?
 
Thank you very much for all your help though!
 
Do you know Lagrange's Theorem?
 
  • #10
I believe so, that the order of a subgroup must divide the order of its group. I know that <σ> is a group (all cyclic elements form groups, correct?), but do we have any other groups to compare in this situation? I'm not used to working with permutations, especially in view of groups.
 
  • #11
In more detail: Since σ7 = id the order of <σ> is either 1 or 7. Since |S5| = 120 and 7 does not divide this number that means <σ> = {id}. Now the proof is done.
 
Last edited:

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