Becoming a mathematician - I am so depressed

  • Thread starter Thread starter Levis2
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Mathematician
Click For Summary
A 17-year-old high school student in Denmark expresses deep frustration and depression over his aspiration to become a mathematician, feeling inadequate due to his IQ of 135. He believes that only those with significantly higher IQs, often seen as prodigies, can succeed in obtaining a math PhD. Despite being recognized as the best math student by his teacher and demonstrating advanced mathematical skills, he struggles with self-doubt and the perception that talent is a prerequisite for success in mathematics. The discussion highlights the misconception that only high-IQ individuals can excel in math, emphasizing the importance of hard work and passion over innate intelligence. Ultimately, the student seeks validation and encouragement to pursue his dream despite his feelings of inadequacy.
  • #121
you don't have an IQ problem. your IQ is very good.
however, you have a mental illness problem because your thinking pattern is completely irrational.
visit a psychiatrist as soon as possible.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #122
JimmBean said:
Apologies for bumping a somewhat old thread, but I really couldn't let this go. That "child prodigy" you refer to in your post, Jacob Barnett, is basically a fake. He has a good memory no doubt (possibly autistic?) and so is able to memorize a great deal of intelligent sounding phrases - even though he knows almost nothing about what he is talking about. In fact his Wikipedia page has been deleted as a result. Watch this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=91e_1301861454

EDIT: Here is some additional material. Watch from 8:31 onward...

It seems this Jacob Barnett kid has a twitter account as well: https://twitter.com/PwningEinstein

Yeah... it's not making him look any smarter. :biggrin:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #123
I have a measured IQ of 127 (granted, this was measured when I was 10), and have been recruited heavily to study physics at a major research university. In all seriousness, if you were able to independently prove the Taylor Series, you have talent beyond anything I have ever been able to imagine. What it comes down to is hard work. Sure, innate intelligence is needed to an extent, but it isn't everything. Look at my IQ, 127, I believe that one day I can accomplish something, and if I can, you certainly can. The only thing standing in your way is your own self-defeat.
 
  • #124
Just work hard at what you love. Simple. Forget all this useless worrying about iq and all that nonsense.
 
  • #125
IQ tests are fundamentally flawed. I have a friend who is autistic with an IQ of ninety-something, but can recite the first 100 digits of pi from memory. He is the smartest person I know, so, don't sweat it.
 
  • #126
jimmyly said:
Just work hard at what you love. Simple. [Forget about everything else ]

This.

SolsticeFire
 
  • #127
I got to tell you, I find the longevity of a thread on how depressing it is to try to become a mathematician, pretty depressing in itself. What say we stop navel gazing and get back to work? (doing math?)

To be depressingly explicit, I am guessing the less time you spend on this thread the more likely you are to become a mathematician.
 
  • Like
Likes 1 person
  • #128
I just had to put in my 2 cents here:

One very good friend of mine has PHDs in Math, Computer Science, and Physics. He had to take his first algebra class 5 times! He even had to take it at another university and transfer it back in order to pass...He had to take one of his calculus classes 3 times before he passed. But, he learned the material and moved on. He now works as a very high level mathematician at a very important US Government facility in Virginia. His determination and his persistence paid off... The drive to achieve what you dream has got to be stronger than your willingness to throw up your hands and give up, no matter what.

Secondly, A different (not very smart) man I know wanted to be a member of MENSA (the "genius" organization). He took the IQ test several times. He bought "how to increase your IQ" books and he took practice IQ tests. He improved his score on the IQ test to the point that he was able to prove his "high IQ" and is now a member of MENSA and active in many of their organizations. I know this man personally, and know that he is NOT a genius...just determined be prove he was one.

I am not trying to take anything away from the true geniuses who deserve our respect and admiration. But, if you want something; just go for it. Don't let negative thoughts or the words of others discourage you.
Quote by jimmyly : Just work hard at what you love. Simple. [Forget about everything else ] - This says it all.
 
  • #129
plife said:
I just had to put in my 2 cents here:

One very good friend of mine has PHDs in Math, Computer Science, and Physics. He had to take his first algebra class 5 times! He even had to take it at another university and transfer it back in order to pass...He had to take one of his calculus classes 3 times before he passed. But, he learned the material and moved on. He now works as a very high level mathematician at a very important US Government facility in Virginia. His determination and his persistence paid off... The drive to achieve what you dream has got to be stronger than your willingness to throw up your hands and give up, no matter what.

You can't be serious.. 3 different PhD's?? Doesn't each one take 4-7 years?? Considering this person took a calc class 3 times that already put them behind 3 semesters. Minimum age would be 33 finishing all of this, max would be 40. Did this person do post-docs too?
 
  • #130
I don't see how IQ plays apart, as long as you do not have any severe learning disability.

This game is 99% work and dedication. Some students seem brilliant in class and grasp something immediately during the lecture. I go home and read about it until I also understand. Big whoop.

If you LIKE math, you will do well in it.
 
  • #131
You can't be serious.. 3 different PhD's?? Doesn't each one take 4-7 years??

Yes, he is actually in his 50's now and is working on a Masters in Geological Information Systems. I guess he is "addicted" to homework - lol!
 
  • #132
To the OP,
Just to say the same all have been saying.. If you really enjoy the subject engross yourself into it so much so that you see mathematics everywhere and gradually you will learn to come up with ideas of your own. Even if you don't, the journey of learning it will be so enriching that at the end you will be satisfied with your work, which is all that matters...
IQ tests are no guaranteed criterion to say if you can be a mathematician, these tests are created for general people not customized for specific individuals so they can tell where you stand in general not what are your real strengths, so ignore them..
It is always said, "Genius is 1% inspiration and the rest 99% perspiration." So anyone ready to devote a long time can become a genius in their respective field..maths is no exception.
(I am no expert, i just presented what I feel as per what I have learned from people on PF)
All the best..
 
  • #133
I am a 172. Formally tested five times and only one test was bold enough to put it at 172. The rest had me at 160+.I didn't have an education but I got a GED, scoring top percentile. I studied
for the SAT, did very well, and started my math at calculus 1. I've since aced the calculus series.

But, higher level proof writing is very difficult for me. If you can prove like you say you did, then don't worry about your fluid intelligence. You have a talent nonetheless and would make a fine mathematician, perhaps a doctorate indeed. However, becoming a professor is to aspire to be better than all the other doctorates
 
  • #134
Not knowing calculus at age 12 doesn't make you stupid. It means you probably weren't interested in math back then.
At age 12 I hated math but I was a savant at playing Pokemon. In fact I think that helped my math abilities to suddenly blossom when I entered high school.

Confidence is more important than intelligence. Let me tell you, when I was in kindergarten I thought I was too stupid to learn how to read or do math... I was reading chapter books by the end of the year.

Lastly, it cannot be stated enough... creative thinking is of utmost importance. Math, as taught in school, is just a language. Some pick it up quicker than others, but it takes creativity to make poetry with it, and sometimes those that are slower wind up the best poets, so to speak. It's a shame that too many think they are talented just because they are fast parrots...
 
  • #135
lol. Us mere mortals can't possibly know what it's like to be a genius like this self-proclaimed 17 year old prodigy. OP I really hope in 5 years you find this thread and laugh; it'll mean you've morphed into a normal human being.
 
  • #136
JimmBean said:
Apologies for bumping a somewhat old thread, but I really couldn't let this go. That "child prodigy" you refer to in your post, Jacob Barnett, is basically a fake. He has a good memory no doubt (possibly autistic?) and so is able to memorize a great deal of intelligent sounding phrases - even though he knows almost nothing about what he is talking about. In fact his Wikipedia page has been deleted as a result. Watch this:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=91e_1301861454

EDIT: Here is some additional material. Watch from 8:31 onward...

This more candid video (filmed by his Mom) is disturbingly stupid, with he only reciting patently obvious facts and hinting towards his new theory which "he cannot talk about on video". He obviously understands very little about the math/physics he is reciting. I get the feeling that this kid is vaguely intelligent with a good memory and has been unfortunately taken advantage of by his parents in a pathetic attempt for their 15 minutes of fame. I actually feel sorry for the kid.

Moral of the story Levis2: don't believe everything you read in the media - most of it is sensationalized to the extreme. Do what you enjoy and don't let others (e.g. the media) tell you what you can and can't do. And get some professional help if you are feeling really depressed - that won't help anything.




AWW - you feal sorry for the kid. First, I doubt it is just memory. He has published research in "Physical review A"; look this up:

"Origin of maximal symmetry breaking in even PT-symmetric lattices"


He also was accepted at Permiter Institute.

This was posted on his Facebook:

It is the next step for Jacob!.. Today we were notified that Jake has been accepted to the Perimeter Institute for Advanced Studies! In the words of the director there after review of his pre work courses..."We have determined that it is very obvious that Jacob will make significant advancements to science and therefore we would like to accept him to the programs here!"

He does not have a Twitter account it does not take a genius to know that one is a fake. Further, in the video he was just saying that some of the claims in the media are incorrect (that he was going to prove Einstein wrong.)

HA HA.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #137
IQ becomes this days a source of depression... I laugh.
 
  • #138
Hey Levis2! I understand your passion for mathematics - I have a similar one as well! I took Calculus BC last year (in 10th grade) and now I'm taking linear algebra and multivariable calculus as a junior. Differential equations is one of my favorite subjects in calculus and I'm hoping to either major in mathematics or theoretical physics in college.

My IQ is pretty high (around 155), but that doesn't tell you very much about the potential I might have in the future as a physicist or a mathematician. Similarly, don't take IQ scores literally. They are not a very good, accurate measurement for your intelligence. I will tell you something that is a good measurement of intelligence: TIME. You've already gotten your passion for mathematics. Now all you need is time and practice to develop those skills. Geniuses may have a bit of raw talent, but most of it isn't magic. That's what I've learned. I have the exact same problem you're detailing out, and I realized that associating Mathematics PhD's with IQ's of like 160 and 170+ is not very accurate. There are hundreds of mathematicians who have made significant contributions and who probably don't have IQ's of 160+ for the most part. And Levis2, one thing is for sure: just as what micromass said, you should ENJOY doing mathematics. Don't involve yourself with you know, wanting to be a math genius or learn tensor calculus or Galois group theory at age 14 or something like that. You already have great potential for mathematics - just play around with it, immerse yourself in it, and hone your skills. You'll definitely become a great mathematician in the future! :)
 
  • #139
Quoting a 'TRUE' big mathematician about the "Genius and Mathematics":

Does one have to be a genius to do mathematics?

The answer is an emphatic NO. In order to make good and useful contributions to mathematics, one does need to work hard, learn one’s field well, learn other fields and tools, ask questions, talk to other mathematicians, and think about the “big picture”. And yes, a reasonable amount of intelligence, patience, and maturity is also required. But one does not need some sort of magic “genius gene” that spontaneously generates ex nihilo deep insights, unexpected solutions to problems, or other supernatural abilities.

The popular image of the lone (and possibly slightly mad) genius – who ignores the literature and other conventional wisdom and manages by some inexplicable inspiration (enhanced, perhaps, with a liberal dash of suffering) to come up with a breathtakingly original solution to a problem that confounded all the experts – is a charming and romantic image, but also a wildly inaccurate one, at least in the world of modern mathematics. We do have spectacular, deep and remarkable results and insights in this subject, of course, but they are the hard-won and cumulative achievement of years, decades, or even centuries of steady work and progress of many good and great mathematicians; the advance from one stage of understanding to the next can be highly non-trivial, and sometimes rather unexpected, but still builds upon the foundation of earlier work rather than starting totally anew. (This is for instance the case with Wiles‘ work on Fermat’s last theorem, or Perelman‘s work on the Poincaré conjecture.)

Actually, I find the reality of mathematical research today – in which progress is obtained naturally and cumulatively as a consequence of hard work, directed by intuition, literature, and a bit of luck – to be far more satisfying than the romantic image that I had as a student of mathematics being advanced primarily by the mystic inspirations of some rare breed of “geniuses”. This “cult of genius” in fact causes a number of problems, since nobody is able to produce these (very rare) inspirations on anything approaching a regular basis, and with reliably consistent correctness. (If someone affects to do so, I advise you to be very sceptical of their claims.) The pressure to try to behave in this impossible manner can cause some to become overly obsessed with “big problems” or “big theories”, others to lose any healthy scepticism in their own work or in their tools, and yet others still to become too discouraged to continue working in mathematics. Also, attributing success to innate talent (which is beyond one’s control) rather than effort, planning, and education (which are within one’s control) can lead to some other problems as well.

Of course, even if one dismisses the notion of genius, it is still the case that at any given point in time, some mathematicians are faster, more experienced, more knowledgeable, more efficient, more careful, or more creative than others. This does not imply, though, that only the “best” mathematicians should do mathematics; this is the common error of mistaking absolute advantage for comparative advantage. The number of interesting mathematical research areas and problems to work on is vast – far more than can be covered in detail just by the “best” mathematicians, and sometimes the set of tools or ideas that you have will find something that other good mathematicians have overlooked, especially given that even the greatest mathematicians still have weaknesses in some aspects of mathematical research. As long as you have education, interest, and a reasonable amount of talent, there will be some part of mathematics where you can make a solid and useful contribution. It might not be the most glamorous part of mathematics, but actually this tends to be a healthy thing; in many cases the mundane nuts-and-bolts of a subject turn out to actually be more important than any fancy applications. Also, it is necessary to “cut one’s teeth” on the non-glamorous parts of a field before one really has any chance at all to tackle the famous problems in the area; take a look at the early publications of any of today’s great mathematicians to see what I mean by this.

In some cases, an abundance of raw talent may end up (somewhat perversely) to actually be harmful for one’s long-term mathematical development; if solutions to problems come too easily, for instance, one may not put as much energy into working hard, asking dumb questions, or increasing one’s range, and thus may eventually cause one’s skills to stagnate. Also, if one is accustomed to easy success, one may not develop the patience necessary to deal with truly difficult problems. Talent is important, of course; but how one develops and nurtures it is even more so.

It’s also good to remember that professional mathematics is not a sport (in sharp contrast to mathematics competitions). The objective in mathematics is not to obtain the highest ranking, the highest “score”, or the highest number of prizes and awards; instead, it is to increase understanding of mathematics (both for yourself, and for your colleagues and students), and to contribute to its development and applications. For these tasks, mathematics needs all the good people it can get.

Further reading:

“How to be a genius“, David Dobbs, New Scientist, 15 September 2006. [Thanks to Samir Chomsky for this link.]
“The mundanity of excellence“, Daniel Chambliss, Sociological Theory, Vol. 7, No. 1, (Spring, 1989), 70-86. [Thanks to John Baez for this link.]

_____________________________________________________
~ Terence Tao.
 
  • #140
Windows said:
Quoting a 'TRUE' big mathematician about the "Genius and Mathematics":

Does one have to be a genius to do mathematics?

The answer is an emphatic NO. In order to make good and useful contributions to mathematics, one does need to work hard, learn one’s field well, learn other fields and tools, ask questions, talk to other mathematicians, and think about the “big picture”. And yes, a reasonable amount of intelligence, patience, and maturity is also required. But one does not need some sort of magic “genius gene” that spontaneously generates ex nihilo deep insights, unexpected solutions to problems, or other supernatural abilities.

The popular image of the lone (and possibly slightly mad) genius – who ignores the literature and other conventional wisdom and manages by some inexplicable inspiration (enhanced, perhaps, with a liberal dash of suffering) to come up with a breathtakingly original solution to a problem that confounded all the experts – is a charming and romantic image, but also a wildly inaccurate one, at least in the world of modern mathematics. We do have spectacular, deep and remarkable results and insights in this subject, of course, but they are the hard-won and cumulative achievement of years, decades, or even centuries of steady work and progress of many good and great mathematicians; the advance from one stage of understanding to the next can be highly non-trivial, and sometimes rather unexpected, but still builds upon the foundation of earlier work rather than starting totally anew. (This is for instance the case with Wiles‘ work on Fermat’s last theorem, or Perelman‘s work on the Poincaré conjecture.)

Actually, I find the reality of mathematical research today – in which progress is obtained naturally and cumulatively as a consequence of hard work, directed by intuition, literature, and a bit of luck – to be far more satisfying than the romantic image that I had as a student of mathematics being advanced primarily by the mystic inspirations of some rare breed of “geniuses”. This “cult of genius” in fact causes a number of problems, since nobody is able to produce these (very rare) inspirations on anything approaching a regular basis, and with reliably consistent correctness. (If someone affects to do so, I advise you to be very sceptical of their claims.) The pressure to try to behave in this impossible manner can cause some to become overly obsessed with “big problems” or “big theories”, others to lose any healthy scepticism in their own work or in their tools, and yet others still to become too discouraged to continue working in mathematics. Also, attributing success to innate talent (which is beyond one’s control) rather than effort, planning, and education (which are within one’s control) can lead to some other problems as well.

Of course, even if one dismisses the notion of genius, it is still the case that at any given point in time, some mathematicians are faster, more experienced, more knowledgeable, more efficient, more careful, or more creative than others. This does not imply, though, that only the “best” mathematicians should do mathematics; this is the common error of mistaking absolute advantage for comparative advantage. The number of interesting mathematical research areas and problems to work on is vast – far more than can be covered in detail just by the “best” mathematicians, and sometimes the set of tools or ideas that you have will find something that other good mathematicians have overlooked, especially given that even the greatest mathematicians still have weaknesses in some aspects of mathematical research. As long as you have education, interest, and a reasonable amount of talent, there will be some part of mathematics where you can make a solid and useful contribution. It might not be the most glamorous part of mathematics, but actually this tends to be a healthy thing; in many cases the mundane nuts-and-bolts of a subject turn out to actually be more important than any fancy applications. Also, it is necessary to “cut one’s teeth” on the non-glamorous parts of a field before one really has any chance at all to tackle the famous problems in the area; take a look at the early publications of any of today’s great mathematicians to see what I mean by this.

In some cases, an abundance of raw talent may end up (somewhat perversely) to actually be harmful for one’s long-term mathematical development; if solutions to problems come too easily, for instance, one may not put as much energy into working hard, asking dumb questions, or increasing one’s range, and thus may eventually cause one’s skills to stagnate. Also, if one is accustomed to easy success, one may not develop the patience necessary to deal with truly difficult problems. Talent is important, of course; but how one develops and nurtures it is even more so.

It’s also good to remember that professional mathematics is not a sport (in sharp contrast to mathematics competitions). The objective in mathematics is not to obtain the highest ranking, the highest “score”, or the highest number of prizes and awards; instead, it is to increase understanding of mathematics (both for yourself, and for your colleagues and students), and to contribute to its development and applications. For these tasks, mathematics needs all the good people it can get.

Further reading:

“How to be a genius“, David Dobbs, New Scientist, 15 September 2006. [Thanks to Samir Chomsky for this link.]
“The mundanity of excellence“, Daniel Chambliss, Sociological Theory, Vol. 7, No. 1, (Spring, 1989), 70-86. [Thanks to John Baez for this link.]

_____________________________________________________
~ Terence Tao.

I'll provide a link, if you don't mind. Also, one may not need to be a genius to succeed in math (or physics) but I think one needs to be obsessive about it.

Link: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/career-advice/

You've many interesting career advice topics, written by a giant in his field.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #141
Choppy said:
If math really is your passion, then pursue it until you can't anymore - not because someone tells you that it's not possible, but because you struggle too much with the problems and lose passion for them (if that ever happens at all).

I don't think I struggled "too much" with the problems, but I still lost my passion for mathematics, at around the age of 24, half way through my PhD. But I didn't regret pursuing mathematics, or giving it up, I just found another passion - pursuing easy money, an easy life, and lots of free time to pursue my new passions (reading novels, cycling, socialising...) Mathematics helped with that, numeracy gets you into cushy careers.

You'll get a lot happier if you lose your "I must be Einstein" complex. Lots of people with IQs of a hundred or less are having a great time. I also think you should see a counsellor, CBT and REBT therapies have techniques for attacking the "I must be Einstein" complex. Albert Ellis, the founder of REBT even has a fun name for it - musturbation. The basic idea is that people make themselves very mentally sick by saying they "must be this" or "must be that"", and get a lot better when they drop the "must". Just relax and have fun with your maths, and laugh if you don't get to do a PhD. There's always something you can do to be happy, and being happy is the important thing, not being Einstein.

So, if mathematics really is your passion, then pursue it because it's fun, and stop pursuing it when it becomes not so much fun.
 
  • #142
Do you want to be a mathematician, or do you want to say you are a mathematician?
 
  • #143
mal4mac said:
I don't think I struggled "too much" with the problems, but I still lost my passion for mathematics, at around the age of 24, half way through my PhD. But I didn't regret pursuing mathematics, or giving it up, I just found another passion - pursuing easy money, an easy life, and lots of free time to pursue my new passions (reading novels, cycling, socialising...) Mathematics helped with that, numeracy gets you into cushy careers.

You'll get a lot happier if you lose your "I must be Einstein" complex. Lots of people with IQs of a hundred or less are having a great time. I also think you should see a counsellor, CBT and REBT therapies have techniques for attacking the "I must be Einstein" complex. Albert Ellis, the founder of REBT even has a fun name for it - musturbation. The basic idea is that people make themselves very mentally sick by saying they "must be this" or "must be that"", and get a lot better when they drop the "must". Just relax and have fun with your maths, and laugh if you don't get to do a PhD. There's always something you can do to be happy, and being happy is the important thing, not being Einstein.

So, if mathematics really is your passion, then pursue it because it's fun, and stop pursuing it when it becomes not so much fun.

I'd be interesting in hearing/knowing about said techniques. Do you, perhaps, have a link?
 
  • #144
Very sound advice, though i doubt the op will take it or even admit to himself he has such issues.
 
  • #145
  • #146
I hope you all know that this kid doesn't exist and is someone that made up the thread to see how many people would respond, and shoot. This is a lot of responses.
 
  • #147
It doesn't matter if the kid exists or not. People read novels, why not respond to a fictional character?
 
  • #148
Its widely known across the Psychology and Cognitive Science Community that the standardized IQ test is not able to measure the real potential for scientific achievement. This derives directly from the big true that science understand very very little from the human mind, and as far as it knows it is the most complex thing known by humans in the universe. There might be kind of fundamental mental abilities that humans use everyday on which neuroscience doesn't even have a clue that they exist. Everyone's mind is unique in what it is capable of.

Take care of yourself man. Do not concentrate yourself on delusional thoughts that make you value yourself far less than you are and hold you back from getting what you are capable of. And since you really trust science, you might even want to talk to a good psychologist who can help you become more aware about how your thoughts might be flowing in this situation.
In science we want to perceive and understand the reality and not to feed our delusions far from it.

All the best and good luck.
 
  • #149
  • #150
Average IQ of PhD holding professors is 120. Quit cha' whinin' smarty pants.

edit: Also, people MUCH worse off than you are doing just fine. There's a blind lady in my physics courses. I don't know how she does it, but she does. She is not someone with a genius IQ either. She asks dumb questions constantly. But she never stops asking them, and eventually gets it. She's amazing, and you should learn something from her.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 43 ·
2
Replies
43
Views
7K
Replies
28
Views
3K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
358
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K