Thrice
- 258
- 0
You guys might like http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/outside_the_lab.html" site (among others) might be interesting too.
Last edited by a moderator:
I base my statement on these sources:Evo said:Not true, and yes I personally know the Smithsonian Chair of Zoology below that the controversy is around. You couldn't find a more reasonable man.
Richard Sternberg, editor of a small publication associated with the Smithsonian Institute, agrees to publish a peer-reviewed article by Stephen Meyer, an advocate of Intelligent Design. He thinks "that by putting this on the table, there could be some reasoned discourse." Instead, his "colleagues and supervisors at the Smithsonian" are enraged. They take away Sternberg's master key, ostracize and harass him at work, and spread rumors that that the article was not peer reviewed and that Sternberg is not a scientist. (These rumors are false.) An official review of the matter discloses that "officials at the Smithsonian worked with the National Center for Science Education -- a group that opposes intelligent design -- and outlined 'a strategy to have [Sternberg] investigated and discredited.' "
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/18/AR2005081801680.html?sub=AR
U.S. OFFICE OF SPECIAL COUNSEL
I have carefully considered the information you provided. Based upon my evaluation of the facts and law applicable to your claim, I have made a preliminary determination to close our investigation into your allegations. My decision is not based upon the substance of your allegations; in fact, our preliminary investigation supports your complaint. My decision is founded upon a complicated jurisdictional puzzle and your position as a Research Associate (RA).
During our initial investigations, OSC has been able to find support for many of your allegations. However, the SI is now refusing to cooperate with our investigation.
Our preliminary investigation indicates that retaliation came in many forms. It came in the form of attempts to change your working conditions and even proposals to change how the SI retains and deals with future RAs. During the process you were personally investigated and your professional competence was attacked. Misinformation was disseminated throughout the SI and to outside sources. The allegations against you were later determined to be false. It is also clear that a hostile work environment was created with the ultimate goal of forcing you out of the SI.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5007508
http://www.rsternberg.net/OSC_ltr.htm
Dont the ID folks specifically point out that ID doesn't mention who or what the intelligence is?Moonbear said:You do realize that actually has NOTHING to do with what proponents of Intelligent Design are arguing, don't you? Intelligent Design is just a repackaging of creationism.
Is there any scientific theory about which recipes will taste good? Cooking is about making meals that taste good.Moonbear said:Actually, cooking IS pretty scientific...it's based on a lot of chemistry. There are even people who major in Food Science.
Thats what the criticism should be about yes, but most of it isnt.ID proponents only get criticized for that because they try to claim their views ARE science, which they are not, precisely for the reason you identify, that they are not claims that can be tested (not falsifiable).
This is another danger to science i think. Many scientists being so fervently opposed to ID, and science in general refusing to let the idea be considered within science, there is the real possibility that this will damage the reputation of science in the future. The argument against ID (as u pointed out) is not that is isn't true, but that it isn't scientific. When science thus opposes an idea which may very well be true, there is the danger that when it does turn out to be true, science will have the bomb explode in its face.Scientists say ID is not science, period. If people want to discuss it in church or religious classes, we have no problem with that, only when they try to teach something that is not based in science in the science classroom have they run into criticism from scientists.
My analogy hit the nail on the head, except that the brainsurgeon not only denies that the leg is broken, he also ridicules the orthopedic surgeon. Also, when we take the entire hospital as an anology for researching reality, then the orthopedic surgeon has a legitimate role in it, as does the brainsurgeon.Your analogy makes no sense at all. It's more like a brain surgeon saying they can't treat a broken leg because it's not a brain. In other words, it's outside their field, and should be referred to an orthopedic surgeon, just as science and scientists don't deal with intelligent design; it belongs squarely in the realm of religion, not science...outside the field.
Please don't confuse obvervable with observation. If you report that you saw the cat dead, then you are mistaken, you did not observe the cat at all. If you report that you saw it alive, same problem. If you report that you saw the cat half dead, half alive, then you reported what the theory told you, not what you actually observed.Gokul43201 said:In physics, an observable is very well-defined. In QM, for instance, it is associated with a hermitian operator.
PIT2 said:Dont the ID folks specifically point out that ID doesn't mention who or what the intelligence is?
That's your perception of what cooking is about. There is no "theory" on it, but yes, there is study of things like taste reception, the chemistry of how foods will interact, how different ingredients alter palatability, etc. That you don't need to understand the science to follow a recipe doesn't mean there is no scientific study of the subject.PIT2 said:Is there any scientific theory about which recipes will taste good? Cooking is about making meals that taste good.
No, that is what most of the criticism is about. There are others who have problems with it on a social, not scientific, level as well, but that is not the issue the scientific community, as a whole, has with it.Thats what the criticism should be about yes, but most of it isnt.
The burden of proof is on those who are proposing the "theory." When they can provide solid evidence supporting their claims, they will be listened to. If they continue to base their claims on what is NOT observed, and ignore all the existing evidence to the contrary, then it is NOT science.This is another danger to science i think. Many scientists being so fervently opposed to ID, and science in general refusing to let the idea be considered within science, there is the real possibility that this will damage the reputation of science in the future. The argument against ID (as u pointed out) is not that is isn't true, but that it isn't scientific. When science thus opposes an idea which may very well be true, there is the danger that when it does turn out to be true, science will have the bomb explode in its face.
You're again making an assumption there that it will be true. When those who are proposing ID present the experiments or show how it can be empirically researched, again, scientists will be interested to hear it. They have not provided anything testable as yet.I think it would be better for science to really look into the possibility of how (parts of) ID can be empirically researched. That way, when it starts looking like its true, science would avoid a "the sun rotates around the earth" scenario.
My analogy hit the nail on the head, except that the brainsurgeon not only denies that the leg is broken, he also ridicules the orthopedic surgeon. Also, when we take the entire hospital as an anology for researching reality, then the orthopedic surgeon has a legitimate role in it, as does the brainsurgeon.
Ive read many times that ID itself does not state who or what the intelligence is, that it simply speaks of 'intelligence'. But in the end it doesn't matter if the proponents think its god or a supreme being, and it doesn't matter if people think its not scientific. What matters is if its true or not.Moonbear said:They are still arguing it is some sort of "supreme being" or god. As I mentioned above, it's just an attempt to bring back creationism, and tries to do so by not specifying which god to try to force it into the public school classroom. It is still religion and still has zero scientific basis.
If someone says that the simplest lifeforms are intelligent and can genetically engineer their genomes, then that is a form of intelligent design. Its just not a supernatural god doing it.The person whose site you linked to, if you read what's there, also clearly distinguishes that what he is talking about is not ID. He's actually very critical of it.
There is scientific study of religion also, so what? My point was that when people say they can cook a fabulous meal, they shouldn't be ridiculed because its not a scientific theory.Moonbear said:That's your perception of what cooking is about. There is no "theory" on it, but yes, there is study of things like taste reception, the chemistry of how foods will interact, how different ingredients alter palatability, etc. That you don't need to understand the science to follow a recipe doesn't mean there is no scientific study of the subject.
The opposite is equally true. If evolutionists managed to show that neodarwinism is capable of what they claim it is capable of, and back it up with empirical evidence instead of philosophical possibilities, then the ID folks will not have a foot left to stand on.The burden of proof is on those who are proposing the "theory." When they can provide solid evidence supporting their claims, they will be listened to. If they continue to base their claims on what is NOT observed, and ignore all the existing evidence to the contrary, then it is NOT science.
Actually, no, i didnt make an assumption, i simply stated the fact that it was a possibility.You're again making an assumption there that it will be true. When those who are proposing ID present the experiments or show how it can be empirically researched, again, scientists will be interested to hear it. They have not provided anything testable as yet.
What about this one: a person is shot 20 times. Each bullet has hit a finger or toe. The preacher looks at the patient and says that he was purposely shot. The doctor says that they were just random shots fired by a chaingun that went off by itself.If you want to make up completely nonsense analogies, then here is the analogy of what ID is...it would be the preacher coming in and looking at the patient with the broken leg and telling him that because we didn't see him fall, his leg isn't broken, and when the doctor points out the fracture on the x-ray, he would argue that's just a deception of the creator making it look like it's broken when it isn't.
You can't decide who is right based on their conclusions; you need to hear the complete arguments. But this is exactly the thing the IDers (such as you, perhaps) refuse to do. They refuse to accept that it takes long, hard work to figure stuff out...and instead believe, as above, that one can "arrive" at conclusions based on a casual glance at things.PIT2 said:What about this one: a person is shot 20 times. Each bullet has hit a finger or toe. The preacher looks at the patient and says that he was purposely shot. The doctor says that they were just random shots fired by a chaingun that went off by itself.
My irony meter is going nuts here.PIT2 said:The opposite is equally true. If evolutionists managed to show that neodarwinism is capable of what they claim it is capable of, and back it up with empirical evidence instead of philosophical possibilities, then the ID folks will not have a foot left to stand on.
PIT2 said:The opposite is equally true. If evolutionists managed to show that neodarwinism is capable of what they claim it is capable of, and back it up with empirical evidence instead of philosophical possibilities, then the ID folks will not have a foot left to stand on.
Kurdt said:I've recently thought of a new theory called P-theory. Now P-theory states that there are invisible organisms similar to pixies that cannot be detected. These organisms rarely interact with our universe as they are slightly phase shifted from the background spacetime, but when they do they tend to only stay for microseconds. Now there is no "proof" or "evidence" for P-theory but you know when you misplace something and you never find it, then a pixie came from their phase shifted universe and took it back with them. This is an example of one success of P-theory in the explanation of missing objects.
Of course this isn't really "scientific" in the traditional sense but what matters at the end of the day is whether its true or not and I believe it is.
How about the formation of organs?Schrodinger's Dog said:What do you want proof of macro evolution, or proof of micro evolution? They have both.
PIT2 said:How about the formation of organs?
Its a system of reasoning that is proven to be flawed.Gokul43201 said:We don't make judgements based on appearances, we make them based on a system of reasoning that has proven to hold water.
(4) Rudimentary Organs.–One of the special arguments commonly cited in favour of the evolution theory is based on the frequent occurrence of rudimentary structures in organisms. As examples we may mention the following: Pythons and boas possesses vestiges of hind legs and of a pelvis separated from the vertebral column.–The slow-worm is without external limbs, and yet possesses the shoulder-girdle and the pelvis, as well as a slightly developed breast-bone.–The ostrich has merely stunted wing-bones, while the nearly extinct kiwi (apteryx) of New Zealand has only extremely small stumps of wings, which are clothed with hair-like feathers.–The gigantic birds of New Zealand which became extinct in past ages were entirely wingless.–Well worthy of note, also are the rudimentary organs of the whale (Cetacea), since of the hind limbs only a few minute bones remain, and these are considered to be the pelvic bones, while the Greenland whale (Balœ;na mysticetus) also possesses thigh and leg bones. The bones of the fore-limbs are not movable independently of one another, being bound together by means of tendons–.Other remarkable vestigial structures are the teeth of the Arctic right whale, which never penetrate the gums and are reabsorbed before birth, the upper teeth of the ox, the milk teeth and the eyes of the mole. The deep sea fish, like the Barathronus, have instead of eyes "two golden metallic concave mirrors" (Chun).–Nor is man devoid of rudimentary organs. Wedersheim mentions no fewer than one hundred. But of these only a few are genuine. The vermiform appendix may serve as an example, though according to recent research it is not entirely functionless. Its length oscillates between 2 cm. and 23 cm., while its breadth and external form vary exceedingly. Probable reasons for its partially rudimentary character are, besides its extreme variability, especially two facts in particular: the length of the organ compared with that of the large intestine is as 1:10 in the embryo, and as 1:20 in the adult; secondly, in 32 per cent of all cases among adults of over twenty years of age the appendix is found to be closed.
Do such rudimentary organs furnish us with an acceptable proof for the theory of evolution?–It is to be admitted that in many instances the organs were formerly in a more perfect condition, so as to perform their typical functions–e.g., the eyes of the mole as organs of sight; and the limbs of the kiwi as means of locomotion for running or even for flying. Hence those individuals which now possesses rudimentary organs are descended from ancestors which were in possession of these same organs in a less degenerated condition. But it cannot be ascertained from the structures whether those ancestors were of another kind than their offspring. The vermiform appendix in man is fully explained by supposing it to have had in antediluvian man a more perfect function of secretion, or even of digestion. Until the palæontological records furnish us with evidence we can only conclude from the occurrence of rudimentary structures that in former ages the whale possessed better developed limbs, that the moles had better eyes, the kiwi wings, etc. In short, rudimentary organs per se do not prove more than that structures may dwindle away by disuse.
Haeckel's endeavour to invalidate the teleological argument has no foundation in fact. In many cases the function of rudimentary organs has been discovered–e.g., the rudimentary teeth of the whale are probably of use in the growth of the jaw; the breast-bone of the slow-worm as a protection of the chest. But even in instances in which we have not succeeded in discovering the function of such structures, it must not be forgotten that degeneration may be eminently teleological in furnishing material for other organs whose functions become more important. Moreover, as long as rudimentary organs remain, they may become, under altered circumstances, the starting-point for an appropriately modified reorganization. It is indeed difficult to see how "dysteleology", as Haeckel calls it, follows from the fact that an organ adapted to specified means of livelihood disappears, probably in order to strengthen other organs when those means of livelihood are changed; and, until the contrary is proved, we may assume that we have to deal with instances of teleological adaptation and correlation, as has already been demonstrated in many cases–e.g., in the development of amphibians.
I don't mean the theoretical process, but the empirical evidence.Schrodinger's Dog said:What like the eye? I can show you the theoretical process if you'd like? Why is this particularly inexplicable?
PIT2 said:I don't mean the theoretical process, but the empirical evidence.
PIT2 said:Its a system of reasoning that is proven to be flawed.
That sounds like that little invisible thing that's inside every human being, called P-consciousness.Kurdt said:I've recently thought of a new theory called P-theory. Now P-theory states that there are invisible organisms similar to pixies that cannot be detected.
Dont u mean millions of years? But yes those kind of powers can't be demonstrated. U can't expect nonmaterialists to accept a materialistic theory which can't be shown to be capable of the job.Schrodinger's Dog said:I'm not sure how I can show exactly how an organ formed, it would take hundreds of years?
What i meant was that there are things that can't be empirically tested at all, like consciousness.How and where? Show me how it has been proven to be flawed? There are flaws in evolutionary theory, or to be more precise holes, but I wouldn't go so far as to call these flaws, more like missing pieces.
PIT2 said:Dont u mean millions of years? But yes those kind of powers can't be demonstrated. U can't expect nonmaterialists to accept a materialistic theory which can't be shown to be capable of the job.