I'm familiar with Bell's Theorem.. have studied it over the years. I'd just like to confirm if my belief is correct. In short. It shows either particles don't exist before measurement or there are hidden variables.. you know all those non-counterfactual and locality arguments.. Specker theorem etc. I know them. But I got confused lately when hbobba can't seem to understand what I'm saying. So let me repeat. If you don't believe in non-local influence. Then particles don't exist before measurement correct? I tend to believe in the latter.. but is it right thing to say particles don't exist before measurement? What is the right words to say if it is not semantically correct? Whatever, the essence is still particles don't exist before measurements. In Physicsforums. the Copenhagen camps (note Ensemble is still cousin to Copenhagen) which is believed by Bill Hobba and company. They keep on saying it is all classical reality with only statistics or probability and it's what QM (and even QFT) is all about. But isn't it EPR shows it is not all classical reality? And particles don't really exist before measurements? Since hbobba believes particles exist before measurement (since this is what Newtonian classical world is all about). How does he or others view EPR.. there are non-local influence or everything is deterministic? Just like Neumaier, hbobba is incredibly advanced mathematically that they can no longer communicate well with beginners without using dense math. So hope others can explain in English. Thank you.