Binomial as a sum of tetranomials

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the combinatorial problem of calculating the number of different species formed by two types of subunits, referred to as 'b' and 'w', particularly when these subunits can form dimers. The participants explore the mathematical formulation of this problem, including the transition from simple combinations to combinations involving dimers, and seek a general proof for the proposed relationships.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a formula for calculating combinations of two species, b and w, using the equation (W+B)!/(W!B!).
  • The same participant introduces the concept of dimers (ww, wb, bw, bb) and proposes a new formula for counting combinations of these dimers, which is (ww+wb+bw+bb)!/(ww!wb!bw!bb!), while keeping the total number of w and b constant.
  • A practical example is provided to illustrate the calculations for specific values of B and W, showing that the sum of combinations for dimers equals the original combination formula.
  • Another participant requests clarification on the relationship between W, B, and the dimer counts (ww, bb, wb, bw), expressing confusion about the equivalence of the total counts.
  • There is a request for a general mathematical proof for the proposed relationship between the two counting methods for any arbitrary values of B and W.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding the relationships between the variables involved. There is no consensus on the clarity of the example provided or the correctness of the proposed formulations, indicating ongoing debate and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential ambiguities in defining the relationships between the variables and the assumptions regarding the formation of dimers. The need for a clear mathematical proof is emphasized, but the specific conditions under which the proposed formulas hold remain unresolved.

goofball
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Hello there,

I'm working on a kinetic theory of mixing between two species - b and w.

Now, if I want to calculate the number of different species B bs and W ws can form, I can use a simple combination:

(W+B)!/(W!B!)

Now, in reality in my system, ws and bs form dimers - ww, bb, wb and bw (since orientation matters).

The number of species we can build with these is

(ww+wb+bw+bb)!/(ww!wb!bw!bb!) summed over all possible combinations of ww, wb, bw and bb such that the number of ws and bs stays constant.

I have proved this numerically for up to b=100 and w=100, which in reality is all I care about, but I am interested if there is a general proof for this, and how you would go around it.

Many thanks!
 
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Your description is a little unclear. Could you explicitly show the equation you are trying to prove.
 
Hi hi! Thanks for your reply, mathman.

It's all a bit confusing, I know. In my original problem, I had W white subunits and B black subunits, and when I wanted to look at the number of different combinations I could add them together, that would be
\frac{(W+B)!}{W!B!}

Now, as my next problem, I for multiple reasons have to treat these as 'dimer' - that is - units consisting of two 'subunits'. This means I can get white-white, white-black, black-white, and black-black dimers (white-black and black-white are different because I care about their orientation..)

Now, when I wan to calculate then number of different combinations of these, I am effectively counting

\frac{(ww+wb+bw+bb)!}{ww!wb!bw!bb!} summed over all the possible combinations of ww, wb, bw and bb such that w and b stays constant.

A practical example - let's say B = 2 and W = 2,

in this case \frac{(W+B)!}{W!B!} = \frac{(2+2)!}{2!2!} = 6

Now, if we treat them as dimers, we have 4 different scenarios:

1) ww = 1, bb = 1

number of combinations is \frac{(ww+wb+bw+bb)!}{ww!wb!bw!bb!}=\frac{(1+0+0+1)!}{1!0!0!1!}= 2

2) wb = 2, bw = 0

number of combinations is \frac{(ww+wb+bw+bb)!}{ww!wb!bw!bb!}=\frac{(0+2+0+0)!}{0!1!0!0!}= 1

3) wb = 1, bw = 1

number of combinations is \frac{(ww+wb+bw+bb)!}{ww!wb!bw!bb!}=\frac{(0+1+1+0)!}{0!1!1!0!}= 2

4) wb = 0 bw = 2

number of combinations is \frac{(ww+wb+bw+bb)!}{ww!wb!bw!bb!}=\frac{(0+0+2+0)!}{0!0!2!0!}= 1

All of these sum to 6 which is the same result as from \frac{(W+B)!}{W!B!}.

This all actually intuitively makes sense, and I have proved this computationally from any arbitrary number of W and B, but was wondering if there was a mathematical proof for this for any general B and W (such that B+W is even so that we can form perfect dimers...)

Thanks again!
 
Your example is confusing. What is the relationship of W and B to ww, bb, wb, and bw? I don't understand why W+B isn't equal to ww+bb+wb+bw.
 

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