Black holes may not exist after all

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the existence of black holes, particularly in light of Stephen Hawking's recent statements and ongoing debates regarding their characteristics in the context of quantum gravity. Participants explore theoretical implications, interpretations of Hawking's work, and the broader implications for physics, including classical and quantum perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the defense of black holes has been strong among certain individuals, while others argue that this defense is not universal and lacks consensus.
  • There is contention over Hawking's statements, with some interpreting them as suggesting that black holes may have different characteristics rather than questioning their existence outright.
  • A few participants highlight the lack of a definitive theory of quantum gravity that includes black holes with event horizons, noting that arguments exist on both sides of the issue.
  • Concerns are raised about the assumption of global CPT symmetry in quantum gravity theories, with some questioning its validity in relation to general relativity.
  • The fuzzball model is mentioned as a prominent proposal suggesting that true event horizons may not exist in quantum gravity.
  • Philosophical discussions arise regarding the definition of "existence" in the context of black holes and event horizons, with some contesting their existence based on interpretations of general relativity.
  • Participants express that there is currently no consensus on the existence of event horizons due to quantum mechanical effects, and discussions remain unresolved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the existence of black holes and event horizons, with multiple competing views presented. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus reached on the implications of quantum gravity for black holes.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the assumptions made regarding quantum gravity and its implications for black holes, particularly concerning the definitions of existence and the interpretations of Hawking's statements. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainties in the field.

  • #31
PAllen said:
I meant a closed, finite, universe; one where future null conformal infinity is undefined.
Even in a closed universe, is it meaningful to distinguish between worldlines that terminate in a black hole singularity and worldlines that terminate in the Big Crunch singularity? If so, then even if the standard definition of "event horizon" in terms of escaping to infinity wouldn't apply, perhaps one could still define a different sort of horizon marking the boundary between points in spacetime where all lightlike worldlines through that point end in the black hole singularity, and points where at least some lightlike worldlines terminate in the Big Crunch singularity. But maybe a distinct black hole singularity doesn't exist in this case, I don't know.
 
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  • #32
JesseM said:
Even in a closed universe, is it meaningful to distinguish between worldlines that terminate in a black hole singularity and worldlines that terminate in the Big Crunch singularity? If so, then even if the standard definition of "event horizon" in terms of escaping to infinity wouldn't apply, perhaps one could still define a different sort of horizon marking the boundary between points in spacetime where all lightlike worldlines through that point end in the black hole singularity, and points where at least some lightlike worldlines terminate in the Big Crunch singularity. But maybe a distinct black hole singularity doesn't exist in this case, I don't know.

But then some events inside the apparent horizon (near the big crunch) would be considered outside the true horizon. An 'outgoing' null ray from them might be caught be the big crunch without reaching what was the BH singularity.

I think, for a universe without the appropriate infinity it makes more sense to define an 'effective BH' in terms of the local trapping surface plus classically predicted singularity.
 
  • #33
This is drifting into the realm of personal theories.
 

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